[chette777]

Kiwi you were the one who said the Bible doesn't go further is describing certain things quote "There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined". in the description of Ezek 28 it doesn't go any further than to describe the beauty of this creation. it never says what the pipe and tabrets are for, everyone assumes they are for music People brought in an interesting thought.

The seven lampstands or candlesticks were made the design of what is known as a Menorah(pron?). these were beaten gold which formed little tubes (pipes) that had branches (pipes with tees) and on them were six on each side and one in the center a bowl shaped like an almond (Tabret-small drum) it would be capped with a small cover with a wick. Oil was placed in the tubes and the wicks would siphon oil to light the lamp. if the oil ran out all wicks went out at the same time.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Kiwi you were the one who said the Bible doesn't go further is describing certain things quote "There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined".

That's right, it was in relation to what Bro. Winman said about "Occam's Razor." On the other hand, there are many things in scripture not clearly defined in one single verse, but clarity comes when you study the Bible and compare scripture with scripture, as you well know. Hence why I gave you more than just Ezekiel 28.

Originally Posted by chette777

The seven lampstands or candlesticks were made the design of what is known as a Menorah(pron?). these were beaten gold which formed little tubes (pipes) that had branches (pipes with tees) and on them were six on each side and one in the center a bowl shaped like an almond (Tabret-small drum) it would be capped with a small cover with a wick. Oil was placed in the tubes and the wicks would siphon oil to light the lamp. if the oil ran out all wicks went out at the same time.

I saw that in Zechariah 4:2 when I searched for "pipes" in my Bible software. You say the centre bowl is shaped like a "tabret-small drum" yet I can't find where the Bible gives it that description using the word tabret? Every mention of tabret or tabrets I found in scripture is connected with music, same as every mention of the word viol or viols in scripture is connected with music, and we know that Lucifer made noise with his viols in Isaiah 14:11.

So I, and others here, are not just basing this belief on one verse that gives limited information, it's scripture with scripture.

[chette777]

KI,

I was just giving you an example of plumbing of the lamp. I know there are no reference to those words but when you understand all the meanings of the English words then you can have a fuller understanding. a Tabret (in plumbing) is a drum (a bowl)like container generally small not much bigger than your thumb (an Almond) that has a valve connected to the pipe to control the flow. the old oil lamps used in some old Victorian styled houses had these some people even called the Tabret lamps. they were filled via a oil can and the wick was lit to give off light.

My point is there is not proof that he ever played music from the Bible. you can connect all sorts of verse to show they are musical instruments but to claim he was a worship leader in heaven would be a guess at best. so any guess would be a good as another.

and if he did play music when did he? where did he? why? the Bible is silent.

the descriptions in Isaiah are of the King of Babylon and that his music and pomp would not be heard or seen any more when he was brought into the grave where the worm eats his flesh. then mysteriously God inserts the Lucifer notes on his rebellion.

If Lucifer did lead worship he is not now, and he has not been cast into the hell yet. so his music is no longer heard in heaven yet he is still alive. which doesn't match to that of Isaiah14:11

I pointed out if he did it was in a time that had no connection to our present time. there is a difference between eternity and our 24/7 time measurements as mentioned by Peter and the Psalmist. I don't think either were saying that a day is equal to 1,000 years but rather describe in our words of understanding that would convey that God's time measurement is different than ours. So Why would God lets us know so clearly there is a difference in our TQ's? (TQ=time quantum=time measurement)

anyway, I like to bring in to the post a variety of views and understandings on things so we can all think deeper for those things which are revealed are for our learning.

It is ok to stretch your bible a little on issues like this as long as we remember that God and his word has the final say. I learned that from Peter Ruckman

[Winman]

Well, I would like to introduce a new question that has been on my mind.

Has Satan "fallen" yet??

I believe most Christians would say yes, but I am not so sure. Probably the most important verse to support this belief is Luke 10:18

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is it possible the Lord was speaking of a future event here?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The reason I ask this (and this is a sincere question) is because Satan still has access to heaven as shown in Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So, it is clearly written here in scripture that Satan has access to heaven, or at least he still had access in the days of Job.

So, I am not asking if Satan sinned, it is clear that in Genesis chapter 3 that Satan is evil, adding to the Word of God and deceiving Eve.

But from what I read, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, and will not be so until the end as shown in Revelations chapter 12.

Any opinions on this?

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Winman

Well, I would like to introduce a new question that has been on my mind.

Has Satan "fallen" yet??

I believe most Christians would say yes, but I am not so sure. Probably the most important verse to support this belief is Luke 10:18

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is it possible the Lord was speaking of a future event here?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The reason I ask this (and this is a sincere question) is because Satan still has access to heaven as shown in Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So, it is clearly written here in scripture that Satan has access to heaven, or at least he still had access in the days of Job.

So, I am not asking if Satan sinned, it is clear that in Genesis chapter 3 that Satan is evil, adding to the Word of God and deceiving Eve.

But from what I read, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, and will not be so until the end as shown in Revelations chapter 12.

Any opinions on this?

Has Satan "fallen"? Yes and absolutely yes. Actually, the verse you provide in Luke 10:18 or in Isaiah 14:12 is a clear indication that he was. It all began when Lucifer said "I will" in Isaiah 14:13-14 so that he was fallen and was cast in the first heaven and become "...the prince of the power of the air..." Ephesians 2:2. Now in Job 1:6 we are not sure that God was in His abode when Satan came also. If this is heaven, it might not be the third heaven(God's abode where no sin can enter) but probaly the second heaven. Whilst Satan had to come to present himself before the Lord, the Bible is not definite to where it occur but the best probality, it occur in the second heaven. Again In Revalation 12, Satan was yet to cast down. Accordingly, Satan is to be cast out into the earth. No more he will be called the prince of the power of the air. Again,Satan will lowered in his position. He will now be next crawling into the deep abyss or the bottomless pit.
Has Satan not fallen yet? He has been fallen but not yet into the ground and in the bottomless pit.


Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

[Winman]

I had thought about the second heaven or our atmosphere, but Rev 12:10 seems to point to the third heaven.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This sounds exactly like Job where Satan appears before God in the third heaven.

[Fredoheaven]

Originally Posted by Winman

I had thought about the second heaven or our atmosphere, but Rev 12:10 seems to point to the third heaven.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This sounds exactly like Job where Satan appears before God in the third heaven.

Exactly in Revelation 12, the context is well defined that heaven is no more of the third heaven. Notice the following:
1. Revelation 12:1, heaven is where is where the sun, moon and the stars are mention. It is no longer a third heaven as it is supposed to be.
2.Revelation 12:3-4, surely the third heaven is not a home of a dragon so that his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.

So that the war in heaven is no longer in God's abode. Jesus and the believer will meet in the air during the rapture so that again, God will not let him got a stronghold, so Satan might be fleeing to the second heaven but God will no longer allow such. He will be thrown down into the earth 'till he will be cast into the bottomless pit and Christ will set up his millenial Kingdom.


Jude 25

[Winman]

I agree with you Rev 12:1 mentions the sun, moon, and stars, so this must be the second heaven or outer space.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So, perhaps when Satan spoke to God in Job, it was in outer space?? But still, it sounds like the 3rd heaven to me.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

I don't know, I really don't picture God sitting in outer space. I know it is completely possible, but I picture God sitting on his throne in the third or highest heaven.

Now I am not questioning the term "fallen" in sense of being sinful, it is obvious Satan is sinful in Genesis chapter 3. No question there.

What I am questioning is his location. Where was Satan? The first heaven (atmosphere), second heaven (outer space), or the third heaven (where God resides)? This is what I mean by "fallen", not talking about sin or iniquity.

Now, if this is so, then isn't Isaiah chapter 14 future?

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This would not seem to be when I believe Satan rebelled in the Garden of Eden, there really were no "nations" then. And "didst" is past-tense.

And which heaven is Satan falling from here? First Satan says he will exalt his throne above the stars (2nd heaven), then in vs. 14 above the heights of the clouds (1st heaven). It also mentions the mount of the congregation (3rd heaven).

And if Satan is not cast down to the Earth until Revelations 12, then isn't Isaiah 14 future? For it is here that it says he is "cut down to the ground".

And how can we say sin cannot enter heaven when the unjust will be judged before God?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Here are sinners in heaven. It is after sinners are cast into the lake of fire that no more is sin allowed in heaven.

[Fredoheaven]

Neither the Bible in Job 1:6 speaks that God is sitting in His throne. Is God confined only to sitting in His throne? I think, God may Stand as in the case of Apostle Paul that Jesus stands in heaven. He may come down from his place just like our Lord Jesus came into the earth. God is everywhere, He too can go into heart of the earth or "hell". Is this possible? I believe with all my heart that he can. "For with God there is nothing impossible". (Luke 18:27). Of course in Isah 14, he was talking to himself while in heaven, whereas in Job 1:6, he no longer in God's abode. To note, in God's abode(Isah 14) he was named as Lucifer but in Job 1, he was Satan (named after he was cast). The ground refers to the ground of third heaven so that he was cut down, meaning he can no longer enter therin.


Jude 25

[Winman]

Fredoheaven

Yes, I agree with you, God can be everywhere. But that is not the picture a person would get from reading Job without bias.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

This sounds like a very formal affair to me. God did not go to meet the angels, they came to present themselves before the Lord.

This almost sounds like a military inspection to me.

And Satan left God's presence, the Lord did not depart from Satan.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

I think the problem is that everyone assumes that sin cannot enter heaven. But that cannot be so, all sinners will stand before God when he is on the Great White Throne.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses are absolutely speaking of the unsaved (the dead). And they are in heaven, standing before God who is sitting on the great white throne.

It is after Satan, his angels, and the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire that the Bible says no sin shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I am not trying to cause controversy here, but when I read the scriptures I am told that Satan can still come and go and enter heaven at times, and has not been cast down to the ground yet.