[Samuel]

Matthew does indeed speak of times of troubles, just as you are seeing today!. These will grow in intensity until the time, that the things that are to come to pass, come.

As I said the doctrines of men, have done much damage to the church (body). Our Lord did not see fit to answer the question about his return, only to say watch and wait. And “I will come at an hour you think not!”.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by toiwnz

The name God is totally absent from the book of Esther. Does that mean He doesn't exsist? Absouletly NOT. I'm sure you here all the time "the phrase rapture is not in the Bible" Does that mean it's not going to happen? The phrase last trumpet is not there, I agree. But since when does last not mean last, final, end, no more after. And I don't see where last trump means last note or sound. Why can't last trump simply mean last trump?

Brother, the point I was making is that the "last trump" on a trumpet doesn't mean it is the "last trumpet". The last trump of 1 Cori 15 & 1 Thess 4 is not the seventh and last trumpet of Rev 11, the last trump calling up the body of Christ actually blows some time before the 1st trumpet goes off during the tribulation.

Don't take all this personally bro, it's not worth it. Some will use harsh words against what you have posted because they, and I, believe it is a gross error being taught in the church today.

God bless your tour of duty!

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Daniel 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah will be "cut off" 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks or 483 days )
after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem 483 years passed from this decree until the time that Christ was crucified. Leaving 7 years to fulfill Daniel 9:24 and for God to finally Judge Israel for their sins. The Beginning of sorrows / The Great Tribulation.

the first 3 1/2 years are a false peace (Beginning of sorrows) therefore suggesting it IS tribulation it just wont appear that way, the 2nd half of the week is when the covenant is broken and satan becomes incarnate and the real horror starts, "the Great Tribulation"

The tribulation was always to be the 7 years, Seven throughout the entire Bible has been used to signify completion.


addition: The beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24 speaks of famines, pestilence and Earthquakes and nation rising against nation, if that's not tribulation what is? The GREAT tribulation is the like of what this World has never seen, nor can imagine. GREAT signifies that something that was started has grown, ie 7 years

Thanks for that summary Bro. Peopleoftheway, I appreciate the way you worded it.

[Biblestudent]

I agree with Brother Kiwi that a "trump" (sound) is not a "trumpet" (instrument).

In the Tribulation period there will be seven "trumpets".

Concerning the Rapture, I read that "THE trumpet" shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then at the "last TRUMP", we shall all be changed and caught up.

So, it seems there is one trumpet to be sounded at least twice at the Rapture.

[kevinvw]

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Comparing scripture with scripture, we can conclude that the voice of God is like a trumpet sounding, which is what Paul is stating in both passages on the rapture of the Church. The passage in 1Thessolonians 4 seems to be a more complete statement on the subject, the same as many passages in the Gospels where one statement is stated in a more complete manner than in the other, and the one in 1Th 4:16 states that it is a voice, not a trumpet.

[Samuel]

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway

Daniel 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah will be "cut off" 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks or 483 days )
after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem 483 years passed from this decree until the time that Christ was crucified. Leaving 7 years to fulfill Daniel 9:24 and for God to finally Judge Israel for their sins. The Beginning of sorrows / The Great Tribulation.

the first 3 1/2 years are a false peace (Beginning of sorrows) therefore suggesting it IS tribulation it just wont appear that way, the 2nd half of the week is when the covenant is broken and satan becomes incarnate and the real horror starts, "the Great Tribulation"

The tribulation was always to be the 7 years, Seven throughout the entire Bible has been used to signify completion.


addition: The beginning of sorrows described in Matthew 24 speaks of famines, pestilence and Earthquakes and nation rising against nation, if that's not tribulation what is? The GREAT tribulation is the like of what this World has never seen, nor can imagine. GREAT signifies that something that was started has grown, ie 7 years

The number 7 is Gods number, and indicated Spiritual Perfection. The number 10 indicates all or complete. Unless you subscribe to the Modernized version, this is like the modernized versions of the Bible (corrupted).

I see the Trump of God as the others, it is does not belong with the 7 trumpets of Tribulation. The Trump of God is a calling to assembly, thus the "Gathering". While the 7 trumpets of Tribulation, are announcements of coming woes.

As for the length of events, and timing, as I said my interpretation may not agree with the many.

[Fredoheaven]

Below is a comparison between Revelation 11:15-16 with Matthew 24:30-31 referred to as The Great Tribulation and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 with 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 as referred to The Rapture.

Matthew/Revelation 1Thessalonians/1 Corinthians

1. Tribes of the earth 1. Dead in Christ; Alive in Christ
not saved of the earth
2.Mourn 2. Comfort
3.Visible return "see" 3. Invisible not secret "twinkling of
an eye or 11/100th of a second.
4. send his angel/ seventh angel 4. The Lord himself
5. sound of the trumpet 5. shout
6. voices(plural) in heaven 6. with the voice(sing.) of archangel
7. -------------------- 7. trump of God

The ressurrection of the dead in Christ is an instantenous event. The rapture of the living saints as decribed in 1 Thessalonians is a re-union, a truly gathering of the saints. We may be found faithful until Christ soon return.

Jude 25
http:www.fredsites.weebly.com

[peopleoftheway]

Originally Posted by Samuel

The number 7 is Gods number, and indicated Spiritual Perfection. The number 10 indicates all or complete. Unless you subscribe to the Modernized version, this is like the modernized versions of the Bible (corrupted).

I see the Trump of God as the others, it is does not belong with the 7 trumpets of Tribulation. The Trump of God is a calling to assembly, thus the "Gathering". While the 7 trumpets of Tribulation, are announcements of coming woes.

As for the length of events, and timing, as I said my interpretation may not agree with the many.

I also agree that the trump of God dosent belong with the 7 trumpets, here is a snippet from a post I posted a while back on the judgement seat of Christ.

there shall be a distinct "order and rank" when we hear the "shout." 1 Thess. 4:16. The word used here in the original for "shout" is more or less of a commanding shout, as "calling to order and rank" and can be likened to a military shout, or an assembling shout which calls together in perfect formation and order.
Cor. 15:40,41. would preclude the thought of the Judgment Seat of Christ being the place where the order, rank and glory shall be determined. Earth is the place where all this is determined, by the kind of life we live here, all glory to GOD and the good of EACH OTHER and the lost, OR NOT.

Even so, Come Lord Jesus and SOON!

[Samuel]

Here is the original scripture numbers list. I scanned this in and made a jpg from some of my notes.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by Samuel

The number 7 is Gods number, and indicated Spiritual Perfection. The number 10 indicates all or complete. Unless you subscribe to the Modernized version, this is like the modernized versions of the Bible (corrupted).

Can you please give us a list of this modernized version of numeric meanings you refer to, so we can compare the two?

It sure looks like seven means complete, finished, and done in the following verses, the number ten isn't there:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Leviticus 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.