[stephanos]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

MC, all I have to say to you is thank you. Do you know I am tired of fighting?

I'm tired, not of the war, not of being a soldier as Paul commands ua to be, I'm tired of fighting with my brethren and my sisteren(original greek, that one. I'm tired of being on the front line and being told I belt my sword on the wrong hip and war in the ranks breaking out. I don't want war with my own troops, I want to guide and help Tandi. And anyone else. I ain't put 25 years of study into what I've studied and it is massive, for me.

I've never read Darby and only poems and song lyrics by JC O'Hair. I read enough Stam to see he was like John R. Rice, a lightyear wide and half an inch deep doctrinally. I believe we must be "born again", yes, it's in Paul's letters, the new creature., the new man. I'm not a Calvinist as Stam, he brought that into his work from his Dutch Reform background. And I do NOT believe ONLY the original manuscripts were given by inspiration and I got to search through 215 "versions" of the bible to cherry-pick doctrine as the Jesuits want us to.

God love Dr. Ruckman, you won't find me anywhere in his "Why I Am Not A Hyperdispennsationalist". I'm castout even among the dispensationalists. They are divided into Mid-Acts, Early-Acts, Northcentral Acts, Southewestern Acts; where did the "body" begin?

At Calvary, it was revealed by Paul. Something can be there but not revealed. As Bilbo to Gollum in the The Hobbit: What have I got in my pocket? Twixt you and me, I don't care where or when the Body began, only that He let you and me in.

MC, I hope water baptism is our only contention we ever have. I hope you will help me make every thought captive for Christ, and that I can be a help to you in the same manner. Baptism is a statement of faith to you, it's the first step in consecrating a Levite priest to me. Water baptism is sight and not faith to me. The same method we use(Isaiah 28) to learn all the rest of His truth is the method I used to determine water baptism is the ritual consecration of a Levite, John baptised to make a "kingdom of priests".

In the flesh I look like a deserter from the Confederate Army, I am a dying breed in America: I'm a gun-owning-tobacco using-heterosexual. I am part Shawnee Indian and before I cut 10 inches from it I could sit on my hair. The bikers in the street ask me, why do you look like "us" but act like ":them"? Because you ain't supposed to look at me, you're supposed to look at the words in this Book.

I have 4 heroes among men: the Apostle Paul, my pastor Bill Jennings, Pastor Richard Jordan and Arthur Blessit. Jordan was thrown out of the Bereans for making the KJV the only bible they were to use, Blessit was stood up in front of firing squads for Christ carrying that wooden cross 36,000 miles. That's humbling, all I ever did was take a Buck knife from a biker who was gonna stab me. I just reached out and flick!, took it from his hand.

Enough about me. I must decrease, He must increase.

If I haven;t scared you to death by now, let's stand in rank together. Only thing is I don;t drop when they shout "incoming..." My armor is better than Kevlar.

I'll leave you with my favorite bible verse: If we had hope of Christ in this life alone we would be, of all men, most miserable.

Grac4e and peace to you this day and all days, MC.

Tony "Bones" Howard

You'd have a hard time shewing that baptism is to make Levites. I can count at least 7 different baptisms in the Scriptures and non of them have anything to do with Levites. Not only that but Paul wrote this:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9 KJV)

Confessing with thy mouth is "sight not faith" as you said. James wrote on this here:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 KJV)

Which shews that there should always be two parts to our conversion, the saving action which is unseen, and the physical witness which we do before men. This is why we baptise those that come to Christ, so that they can have a chance to "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" and so that they can also shew forth the figure of what happens inside when they are baptised by the Holy Ghost:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

I don't believe Peter is saying that dunking (as it's translated in Martin Luthers German translation, lol) saves us, which is why he said "like figure". What saves us is what happens inside a man which that baptism in water is a figure of.

Just out of curiosity, are you aware that we Christians will go through the water one more time? If can give me a book chapter and verse you will have earned a browny point with me

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

I take it you are Jewish and of the Messianic persuasion, correct me if I am wrong......Tandi, I say this to you as a brother and not a combatant: If Tandi is saved by grace through faith yet you believe you can lose so great a salvation, go to Romans 8 and tell me what can separate Tandi from the love of Christ?

His bessings and grace be upon you from this day forth. I await to hear from you.

Grace and Peace

Tony

Hello Tony,

Thank you for your response and prayer for me.

I suspect I may have Jewish heritage but was not raised Jewish. I grew up Catholic but renounced Roman Catholicism after my born again conversion in 1982. My friend was adopted but also suspects Jewish heritage. Not that heritage matters, but it would explain a lot of things. We have both been influenced by many varieties of Christianity, including Messianic Judaism and the Hebraic perspective. One reason he cites for his apostasy is the myriad of doctrines and dogmas in Christianity. He asks why God has not preserved the “true religion” but has allowed fragmentation into so many denominations that all claim to have the right understanding of the Bible.

You will probably say that God DID preserve the true religion, Baptist. Yet how many varieties of Baptist are there? And Dispensationalism originated with Darby not that long ago from what I understand. Even fundamentalist dispensationalists are split in their views. Why is there so much confusion?

I have no religious affiliation at present. I call myself a Bible believer. I am an ugly duckling looking for the swan pond and not finding it. I am not a Calvinist, nor an Arminian. I subscribe to no particular brand of systematic theology. I am not a hyperdispensationalist because I cannot accept that more than ¾ of the Bible is “not my mail” including the very words of the LORD Jesus Christ. I have read through the KJV Bible every year for over 20 years with the Bible Pathway devotional guide. I have no aversion to the commandments of God but delight in making application of them and keeping them as far as I am able. Paul himself referred to the Ten Commandments in his epistles. The Jerusalem Council expected that Gentiles would hear Moses on Sabbath at the synagogue and gradually learn the ways of God. I do not keep commandments in order to be saved. I keep them BECAUSE I am saved. I have always had full assurance of my salvation. When I inadvertently sin, broken fellowship brings me back to repentance and renewed fellowship with God which I delight in. The book of Hebrews tells me that walking in unrepentant, willful sin is a very dangerous place to be, thus I “fear God” and “don’t go there.” I don’t know if my friend is walking in willful sin. I believe he is deceived, disillusioned, and hurting because of circumstances in his life. But I ask once again, does an Evolution-believing, Dawkins/Dennett/Shermer-fan Atheist go to Heaven if he once very sincerely "accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior" as a 13 year old? Or is he not really saved to begin with?

Paul talked about Gentiles being grafted in to the Olive Tree and having citizenship in the Commonwealth of Israel. I feel as if I am a part of Israel and long to live in the Land of Israel in the Millennial Kingdom. I expect to go through the Tribulation.

I do not wish to cause problems here or debate dispensationalism but you asked for a response. I realize that I am in the minority with my views and I want to be respectful. I am grateful to be here to glean what I can to help my friend believe that we DO have the preserved Word of God, without proven error. This is the main reason for his departure he says, that there is no perfect Word of God and there should be. This is such a crucial issue in so many lives. There are more than 800 Atheist bloggers out there. I have dialogued with a few that are very nice, formerly very dedicated believers who are reacting against religious abuses and cognitive dissonance rather than against the true and living God in my opinion. They call themselves “reluctant atheists.” Quite a mission field for those who care about the disillusioned.

Shalom,

Tandi

[MC1171611]

I must say that Dispensationalism started with God in eternity past: the Bible gives the command to Rightly Divide the word of truth, so saying that doing so originated with any individual or group of individuals hardly meshes with the Biblical truth.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

I must say that Dispensationalism started with God in eternity past: the Bible gives the command to Rightly Divide the word of truth, so saying that doing so originated with any individual or group of individuals hardly meshes with the Biblical truth.

Yep:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (Hebrews 1:1 KJV)

and

a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. (1 Corinthians 9:17b KJV)

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Ephesians 1:10 KJV)

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (Ephesians 3:2 KJV)

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (Colossians 1:25 KJV)

Where Tandi gets off saying Paul talked about the Ten Commandments I do not know. I don't know how anyone can keep Torah after reading Galatians. I have yet to hear one good reason why these people do the things they do, and I've spoken with a lot of wannabe Jews in the last couple years.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:1-6 KJV)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Colossians 2:13-14 KJV)

One cannot even be considered worthy to keep the Mosaic law without circumcision. So there you have it, the chink in the untenable Messianic Jewish false religion. God have mercy on them. They think they're different then the Curcumcision Party in Paul's day...

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Originally Posted by stephanos

Where Tandi gets off saying Paul talked about the Ten Commandments I do not know....
Stephen

Ephesians 6:1-3 for starters (quoting Exodus 20 and Deut. 5). So this one was not "nailed to the Cross" and declared obsolete.....nor were any of the others that Paul elaborates on in his epistles, such as admonitions against lying, stealing, murder, covetousness, idolatry, adultery, etc. (see Ephesians 4, 5; Gal. 5; Col. 3). The commandments of God are reiterated throughout the epistles (as well as in the Gospels and Acts). Sabbaths and holy days ARE (not were) a shadow (type) of things to come (Col. 2:16).

Keeping Torah is simply keeping the wise instructions/precepts of God. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for....instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim. 3:16).

Tandi

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Tandi

Ephesians 6:1-3 for starters (quoting Exodus 20 and Deut. 5). So this one was not "nailed to the Cross" and declared obsolete.....nor were any of the others that Paul elaborates on in his epistles, such as admonitions against lying, stealing, murder, covetousness, idolatry, adultery, etc. (see Ephesians 4, 5; Gal. 5; Col. 3). The commandments of God are reiterated throughout the epistles (as well as in the Gospels and Acts). Sabbaths and holy days ARE (not were) a shadow (type) of things to come (Col. 2:16).

Keeping Torah is simply keeping the wise instructions/precepts of God. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for....instruction in righteousness. (2 Tim. 3:16).

Tandi

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

I just demonstrated from Scripture the Deity and Omniscience of Santa Clause to you. I mean, "he knows when you've been sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows if you've been bad or good..."

Tandi, your dissertation here has the same validity, Scripturally, as the above statement. I say that with kindness and charity.

Ephesians 6:1 ¶ Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 ¶ I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,

Where in Deut. 5 and Exodus 20 are you referring to? I see no reference to either of these two books anywhere in the above passage of Ephesians.

A very well learned and bold preacher, knowing only the baptism of John, was mighty in the Scriptures. He was mighty wrong too. As with Apollos, let me show you a more perfect way:

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

I think you are trying to separate the first 10 commandments of over 630 from the rest, as all good Seventh Day Adventists do. I think you are trying by your own statements that these things are so just because you say they are so, the same as my pseudo-teaching on Santa. You want to see me start a theology and a church based on Santa Claus? On the internet alone I could reap millions and have thousands of converts teaching false doctrine of the First Church Of Santa Claus., as you have been indoctrinated in. I don't know who indoctrinated you, someone else or yourself, but what you are trying to do is take a bible, tear off the covers, and wad the pages into a ball and swallow it all at once, and you will choke.

You can't "...keep Torah". Neither did Moses, David, Monk, Brandon, me, any of us but ONE kept it. Concerning the law, James is an authority:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

I think you need to reread Romans 6, you have no understanding of Law and Grace and are, I think trying to force them together in the manner the existentialist does with the Absolute Singularity, that all atoms are common and there is no distinctions in matter, energy, in this case, in spiritual things.

The purpose of the law, including the "ten commandments" are the following:

Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We sin yes, I sin, every time I shave according to the law. But though I sin it does not have dominion over me:

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Tandi, I think you are no better off in your present condition that when you were into Catholicism. They are Judaisers and indeed claim the priesthood of the OT and the church of God, they teach another gospel, as you teach here. I think you should re-evaluate your theology in light os these words:

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Israel could not do it, are you going to convince me you have?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Your insistence on keeping the "ten" merely illustrates you are not saved by grace through faith but:

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I think the first place you need to stop and understand is Romans, which was written to the Jewish church in Rome. There is not a verse of Scripture in the KJV, any Greek or Hebrew text, any version, anywhere at any time that supports the first ten commandments of over 630 being separated from the rest. Romans 13:8-9 shows Paul giving the commandments, in verse 8 he gives WHY he gives these of verse 9 and tell me, answer this question, why does he leave out the Sabbath? And you need to answer to yourself, not me or anyone except for God, why you try to wrest, to your own spiritual destruction, Colossians 2:16?

Now, have I become your enemy because I've told you the truth? Is there any member of this forum can come forth and and testify anything I have told you here is error? I don't think you re going to find many adherents here Tandi. In your long reply to me you deny the doctrine of right division with NO Scriptural proof, and when I can get the time and feeling back in my shattered hand to type, I am going to demonstrate that you are wrong in your denial. This message to you overrides that one at the moment.

Grace and peace to you. Believing the KJV is the word of God in English is not the gospel, that is not enough. The gospel of the ten commandments will throw you in hell as fast as the JWs, the gospel of Santa, or Catholicism, because hell will be wallpapered with those who wrongly divided the right Scriptures.

Tony

Hello Tony,

You have misrepresented my views and guessed wrong about my affiliations. I did not join this forum to debate dispensationalism but to glean insight and knowledge concerning the Bible versions issue. I hope you don't mind if I try to live by "every word of God" as Jesus taught (Luke 4:4). I do not seek to be justified by works.

Your confusion about the point I was making results from your reading Philippians 1:1-3 rather than Ephesians 6:1-3 which states:

Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother: (which is the first commandment with promise); That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

What could possibly be wrong with the Ten Commandments as guidelines for life? Why did Paul make this statement? Obviously, he did not consider it obsolete. By extension, neither are the other 9 obsolete. Why would a born-again Christian want to live by a different code of conduct than the commandments of God now written on his heart?

Shalom,

Tandi