[CKG]

What do you think of a pastor's insisting on using wine in the Lord's Supper?

http://www.independencebaptist.org/A...27s_supper.htm

[Cody1611]

I think he wants to use wine, so he can drink the rest of it afterward.

[Harley]

Originally Posted by CKG

What do you think of a pastor's insisting on using wine in the Lord's Supper?

http://www.independencebaptist.org/A...27s_supper.htm

Hi CKG,
I only want to do what the Bible instructs concerning the Lord's Supper, not what any one man may think is correct or incorrect. I have never attended a church were real wine is used. Nor am I interested in past traditions - traditions don't define scripture, scripture defines scripture.

Here are the questions I have pertaining to the topic:

Where does it say in the Bible that wine is the only acceptable liquid for the cup? Does it?

I cannot find any instruction in the Gospels or Epistles that says the cup must be filled with wine. Is it because Jesus drank wine we are also to drink wine and only wine?

Is a believer incorrectly celebrating the Lord's Supper by using grape juice rather than wine? Again, I see Paul's instructions to the Corinthians regarding getting drunk so clearly there was wine involved at the Corinthian church but does that automatically mean we are all to be using wine?

Is the celebration in any way impacted by the contents of the cup? Allow me some latitude here at the risk of sounding disrespecful, but what if the cup was filled with water? Would that be wrong?

To answer your question I'm troubled by this pastor's insistence on using wine. Are those under the age of 21 prevented from celebrating because of this? Or is there some provision that would allow a minor to have a portion of wine if used in a religious ceremony?

But most importantly, what does the Bible teach regarding what is put into the cup?

Harley

[CKG]

Good points. It's one thing to use wine and another to insist that it be used. In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul never specifies they type of drink or bread to be used. I'm not surprised wine is used by churches, but I am surprised an independent Baptist preacher insisting it be used.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by CKG

What do you think of a pastor's insisting on using wine in the Lord's Supper?

http://www.independencebaptist.org/A...27s_supper.htm

I’ll take each of the points on the referenced link and give my understanding of what the scripture teaches.

1. Matthew 26:29 refer to the cup Jesus used as the "Fruit of the Vine." It is true that this describes grape juice, but it must be noted that wine is also described as the "Fruit of the vine."

Where in the word of God is “wine” described as “the fruit of the vine”? Logically, wine comes from grapes. But I find no verse in the word of God where “wine” and “fruit of the vine” are used synonymously.

There is a reason our Bible says:

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

It cannot, and should not, be so easily dismissed that Jesus never used the word "wine" when He instituted the Lord's Supper but always used the words “the fruit of the vine” instead.

2. The context of Matthew 26:17-20 is the observance of Passover. As one compares vs. 17 to 27 it stands out that Jesus took the same cup that was before Him for Passover and instituted His supper. Jewish Rabbi’s and Scholars will attest to the fact that the Passover then and now calls for wine to be used.

Again, we must examine the scripture carefully.

Exodus 12:5-13 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Clearly, in the Passover instituted in the book of Exodus the blood is represented in the shed blood of the lamb which was placed on the two side posts and the upper door post, not the drink. The drink is not even mentioned. Therefore, there is no established Biblical pattern and no Biblical significance placed on the drink in the Passover in Egypt.

It is, however, relevant to me that the juice of a grape is referred to as blood.

Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

3. Further more one should compare Numbers 15:3-11 with Genesis 9:21. The word wine means the thing in both passages. The wine that was used in various feasts and offerings was the same kind of wine that got Noah drunk. Can you get drunk on grape juice?

This is a real stretch in my opinion to find some scripture to support what he believes to be true. Was fermented wine used for various sacrifices established by God? Yes. Did Noah get drunk by drinking wine? Yes. Is this proof or support we should use wine for remembrance of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ? No.

Again, if Jesus meant to institute wine, He would have said so. The logical argument by some is that a sip of wine is much different than guzzling it. I agree with the logic of such a statement but disagree with using this particular reasoning to approve wine for use at the Lord’s Supper.

Here is something else to consider. I have heard that if a recovering alcoholic so much as touches intoxicated drink, he is hooked again. So they are counseled to utterly avoid it. Can you imagine the testimony of a local church that uses “wine” at the Lord’s Supper and causes a brother, who happens to be a recovering alcoholic, to stumble? God forbid!

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

The scripture does not say, “Wine in excess is a mocker,” but rather, that wine itself is a mocker. Do you think Jesus would partake of any thing that is called a mocker or lead others to do so?

4. In I Corinthians 11:17-22 the church here was abusing the Lord's Supper. Paul said that by abusing it some had become drunk. Note the word for yourself in verse 21.

Perhaps if they had followed the Lord’s example of drinking non-fermented fruit of the vine, this abuse would not have occurred. Nevertheless, the Church at Corinth would have probably found a way to sneak some wine in.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

5. In Acts 2:13 when Pentecost was come some accused the church of being drunk. Why would they make such an assumption if the first church hadn't been using wine in the observance of the Lord's Supper?

This is most shallow. What does the scripture say?

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

They did not accuse, assume, think, imply, reason, or determine. They falsely mocked! Many unregenerate evil doers still mock.

6. FACT: The two oldest Baptist confessions of faith use the word wine to describe the fruit of the vine. Both the New Hampshire and Philadelphia Confessions say wine.

And we all know the Baptist, New Hampshire, and Philadelphia Confessions are the final authority.

7. FACT: Baptist almost exclusively used wine in the Lord’s Supper until Prohibition in the 1920's. Should we get our ways from scripture or public opinion?

Yes. I think we should get our ways from scripture, not public opinion, history, or tradition.

8. FACT: Jesus turned the water into wine to show His great power. Would he have done this if there weren’t some kind scriptural use for wine?

Jesus would not violate the written word of God (Himself). Drunkenness is sin. Wine is a mocker. Whoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Do you honestly believe that Jesus would create a beverage which is a mocker and would potentially deceive or make men unwise or drunk? I would gladly drink my fill of wine that was made by Jesus Christ.

9. FACT: When grape juice is fermented leaven is worked out. Grape juice has leaven and impurities in it. Would God tell us to use unleavened bread and then tell us to use grape juice with leaven?

Where in the Bible is grape juice ever likened unto leaven?

10. FACT: Paul told Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach in I Tim. 5:23. If we are to never use wine for anything, Paul sinned.

Sure. Wine was indeed used for medical purposes. Today, Paul might counsel him to take some Pepto Bismol.

11. FACT: The blood of Christ will never loose it power or spoil. Grape juice does spoil while wine can be kept forever. Hebrews 10:12, 7:24-27,

That’s why I would recommend using fresh grape juice for the Lord’s Supper.

12. Fact: Man takes grapes and makes grade juice but the process that makes wine is natural or God controlled. See Acts 20:28, we see God shed His own blood.

So I guess if we leave the grape on the branch it will produce a cup of wine?

NOTE: We believe there is a proper use for wine. We are opposed to the abuse of wine. We believe the Bible to teach plainly against wine and strong drink being used as a beverage.

How about let’s avoid it all together, Brothers and Sisters.

[stephanos]

Thank you brother Forest. I think we Christians should have no part in anything that would prevent us from being sober:

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (1 Peter 1:13 KJV)

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: (1 Peter 5:8 KJV)

And as someone who loved to drink back in the day, I can assure everyone that hasn't drank that even one drink is enough to become intoxicated.

I think what the early Church father Tertullian wrote is relevant to this subject. In this quote he was speaking on the Theatre, Circus and Arena, but it is applicable to consuming intoxicants.

"Does it then remain for us to appeal to the pagans themselves? Let them tell us whether it is right for Christians to frequent the shows. Why, the rejection of these amusements is the chief sign to them that a man has adopted the Christian faith" -- Tertullian

I think this full write-up can be found here: http://www.the-faith.org.uk/tertullian1.html

Peace and Love,
Stephen

[Diligent]

Everyone:

The topic of wine has been thoroughly hashed out in this thread:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335

The new topic of wine in the Lord's Supper is only marginally different. If you look carefully, you'll note that the previous thread has been closed. Also note that both viewpoints are well represented there for those interested.