[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by Vendetta Ride

I've stayed out of this, because I don't know Brother Estep personally; but I'll make two quick comments:

Everything I've heard about his ministry has been positive.

The doctrine of "super-submission" is damnable poppycock!

How's that for a "balanced" post?

That's very amusing, VR, but I agree with you.

[George]

"He teaches a few classes at the Bible college I attend and is a wonderful teacher. The college is a Bible believing college also. . . . .

I still think Dr. Estep is a good man and is a man of God. I'd still recommend him to anyone. He is not an apostate no matter what George or others may say."

Aloha brother Atlas,

It's not about "what George or others may say"! It's all about "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE"! What I (and others) have to say is "irrelevant"! What God has to say is PARAMOUNT! And those Christians who "profess" to be King James Bible believers are duty bound to obey the Scriptures when it comes to False Teachers and Heretics (even if they teach in a "Bible School" where you attend, and even if you "like" them.)

Can you tell me by the evidence that I have presented in regards to the so-called "Doctrine of Submission" as to whether it is "HERESY"? YES _____ or NO _____ {Scripture Please}

If it is "HERESY" - what does that make Greg Estep? {Scripture Please}

How is it possible for a man who promotes "HERESY" to be (in your own words): "a wonderful teacher"; "a good man"; "a man of God"? {Scripture Please}

Does a LITTLE LEAVEN leaven the whole lump? YES _____ or NO _____ {Scripture Please}

Is the so-called "Doctrine of Submission" LEAVEN? YES _____ or NO _____ {Scripture Please}

If it is "LEAVEN", then what difference does it make if Estep teaches "some doctrine" correctly? {The Roman Catholic church has the Deity of Christ; the Virgin Birth; the Godhead ("Trinity"); and several other major doctrines "right", but it is (and has been from its inception) the most "heretical" and "leavening" influence in "Christianity"!}

Can you name a more DAMNABLE HERESY than a man wanting to displace the Lord Jesus Christ in HIS OWN CHURCH? {Please name the "heresy" - Scripture Please}.

I personally don't care what people may "say" or "believe" or "feel" about Greg Estep. For you to say that you would "still recommend him to anyone" after having read the 52 pages of testimony (from his own mouth) that I have presented on my web site - demonstrating, over and over again, that the man continually teaches "False Doctrine" and "Heresy" in his 4 Tape Series (Titled - "The Doctrine of Submission") absolutely astounds me!

Can you not see that the sin that Estep and his followers are guilty of is exactly the same sin that Satan was guilty of when he fell? ?

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be LIKE the most High.

The following are some of Esteps most perverse quotes:

“the one and only head and shepherd of the local church is the God-called and Spirit-filled pastor, JUST AS Jesus Christ is the Head and Chief Shepherd over the entire church;"

"I mean if there’s a problem in your church, what ah, you know what sometimes preachers the only thing they’ll do is they’ll go to God and say: God here’s a problem, oh God, You gotta work this- Hey! GOD’S NOT THE PASTOR OF THAT CHURCH! He’s put YOU down there so YOU could take care of it.”

“Look! Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. Right! Whether you call it a church, I don’t care what you call it. The Bible calls it a church in Ephesians 1:22.You can call it the church in prospect, you can call it the church in promise, prophecy, I don’t care! It doesn’t matter! Just get in it! OK? That’s all that really counts. But He is the Head of the Body; HE IS NOT THE HEAD OF THE LOCAL CHURCH. . . . . “Look! Jesus Christ is the Head of the Body of Jesus Christ. Right! Whether you call it a church, I don’t care what you call it. The Bible calls it a church in Ephesians 1:22.You can call it the church in prospect, you can call it the church in promise, prophecy, I don’t care! It doesn’t matter! Just get in it! OK? That’s all that really counts. But He is the Head of the Body; HE IS NOT THE HEAD OF THE LOCAL CHURCH.”

"Look! He says that He’s the Chief Shepherd. That means, that tells me that a man who is an elder in 1 Peter Chapter 5 is an under-shepherd I’m not the Chief Shepherd. He’s the Chief Shepherd. BUT, I AM THE CHIEF SHEPHERD HERE!”

“In a local church where God has given ME the AUTHORITY OVER THOSE PEOPLE, TO RULE THOSE PEOPLE, NOBODY ELSE!""Preacher have you got people in your church that don’t hear your voice? They ain’t sheep!”

"What should I do then? If I recognize somebody’s not a sheep, what should I do? I sure shump man, before they get to the sheep. If I let them stay there I’m destroying my own flock!"

“Okay. You say well boy you sound like you’re a dictator. Yes sir, I just about am, but you’ve got to realize that I’m also – the head of every man is Christ. I’m not, I’m not without authority. I have authority over men. Not only that, just to help you out, I’m a member of ShadyAcresBaptistChurch. Jack Woods is my pastor. I joined that church one night in camp meeting down there because I realized here I was trying to tell people they need to have some authority and I had none over me. So I joined ShadyAcresBaptistChurch cause he’s my pastor. When I need counseling, when I need help, I have a man to go to. Man I, I’m not going to be there isn’t anybody down here smart enough to figure this stuff out all by yourself. You say: Oh well, I’ve got the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Help yourself man. Help yourself. You’ll find God gives you men to help you. He don’t talk to you directly.”

"Listen! If I as the pastor have admonished a man to tithe, and for 5 or 10 years after he’s been in my church, he still isn’t tithing, is he my sheep? I just, I’ve got tithing records out in my car right now. I’m getting ready to look over what the folks brought in. If I find somebody in there, in there that just quit obeying, I’m going to go to them and find out why! ‘If a brother be overtaken in a fault’. You Know what I’ll - you say preacher – hey, hey, hey, hey. If that guy isn’t tithing now, you know what he’ll be doing in 2 years? He’ll be opposing me actively! Amen. Amen. Amen! Sure!”

"If there’s a problem, you know it won’t take long, that guy will probably come up to you and say: We just don’t think this is right now, and immediately you say: OK Lord I get the message. Say: Let’s you and I step down in my office and have a talk. Don’t! Let me give you a hint, don’t go to their home and talk to them.Cause you see he’s master of his home. You, you take him into that office, where you’re the master!” “You take him to that home boy and you’re outnumbered; wife and kids, their against ya. Yes sir. Amen. He’s been there. Ha, ha, ha, ha, amen.”

How can you possibly say that Estep is a: "a wonderful teacher"; "a good man"; "a man of God"? After reading the above? Hmmm? How could you possibly "recommend him" to anyone after reviewing his perverse teachings presented not only here, but the entire 52 page critique of his 4 Tape Series? We are not only talking about the "Damnable Heresy of "The Doctrine of Submission" - Those 4 tapes demonstrate, over and over again, that the man can not teach the Bible, and anything that he might get right, he probably stole from others since he has shown (in the 4 tapes) that he has so little Biblical discernment.

Where are the Scriptures in your Posts #75 & #79 brother? All I see is your personal "feelings" and "opinions". Give me some Scripture to back up what you believe.

Is it possible that you may be influenced by "respect of persons" regarding (Dr.) Greg Estep? YES _____ or NO _____

[atlas]

George,


Is he an apostate or committed apostasy?

yes____ or no_____



Now either he is an apostate or he is not. Witch is it?

–noun 1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc

apostasy

1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty :

Let me state this again.

" He is not an apostate "

I told you I agree with you on this false dotrine issue. He is not right on this issue.

So this issue is not up for debate. Why debate if we agree? This is of little or no value.

This is the question.

Is Dr. Greg Estep and apostate?

Now you prove he left the faith and renounced Jesus Christ and I'll agree that he is an apostate, until then he is not an apostate. I also want you to prove he left the faith. Send me the CD, book or tape. Then we all will call him an apostate, because that is what he will be.



Atlas

[George]

Originally Posted by aussiemama

Lol Vince is right. You all got upset that Atlas attacked Ruckman, but now its ok to attack Bro Estep? Everyone has something wrong, even ourselves. I don't know Bro Estep so I'm not defending him. I just thought it was interesting how quickly the rules changed when it was no longer Bro Ruckman we were talking about.

Aloha aussiemama,

Your "judgment" in this matter is in error. You have a whole lot to learn, and if you don't stop judging matters, of which you know little or nothing about, you will never learn to "judge righteous judgment".

You are a young Christian woman, and as such, you should be studying the Bible. If you are married you should be following your husband. But the one thing you shouldn't be doing is calling people you disagree with "names" and since you have so little spiritual discernment you should be quietly studying, instead of jumping into a controversy that obviously is beyond your understanding.

Most women in the Western World (even Christian women) don't care much for the following verses, but you would do well to learn them before you start judging WHY some of us say and do the things that we say and do - since you (and MC1171611) cannot possibly know our hearts or our motives.

Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. {That goes for women too}

Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

Proverbs 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.

Proverbs 18:6 A fool's lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

Ecclesiastes 10:12 The words of a wise man's mouth are gracious; but the lips of a fool will swallow up himself.
13 The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness.

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Proverbs 11:16 A gracious woman retaineth honour: and strong men retain riches.

My wife is a shining example of God's "perfect woman" as described in Proverbs Chapter 31. As a young Christian woman you should be emulating the excellent examples God has given you in His Holy word, instead of emulating the "typical" argumentative and contentious Western feminist that has little or no respect for anyone, other than her own opinions!

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

"Aussiemama" until you are grounded in the word of God and get some discernment, understanding, and wisdom from God you would be wise to heed the following advise:

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

[atlas]

George,


I noticed you dodged my last post, therefore I'll post it again.

It's a simple question really.

Is he an apostate or committed apostasy?

yes____ or no_____



Now either he is an apostate or he is not. Witch is it?



Quote:
–noun 1. a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc

apostasy


Quote:
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty :

Let me state this again.


Quote:
" He is not an apostate "


I told you I agree with you on this false doctrine issue. He is not right on this issue.

So this issue is not up for debate. Why debate if we agree? This is of little or no value.

This is the question.

Is Dr. Greg Estep and apostate?

Now you prove he left the faith and renounced Jesus Christ and I'll agree that he is an apostate, until then he is not an apostate. I also want you to prove he left the faith. Send me the CD, book or tape. Then we all will call him an apostate, because that is what he will be.

Atlas

[Gord]

Originally Posted by atlas

George,


I noticed you dodged my last post, therefore I'll post it again.

It's a simple question really.





Atlas

I suspect that if you prayerfully re read the posts #12,31,35,52,55,57,63,67,82, and 84 of Brother George, and #37,49,66,6/,73,74 and 77 of Brother Brandon, you would be able to discern the answers you are looking for rather then jumping to an antagonistic and sarcastic question. There is more spiritual truth in those responses then a lot of everything else in this thread, not to mention getting way off topic because of sinful personality disagreements.

[MC1171611]

Originally Posted by Gord

I suspect that if you prayerfully re read the posts #12,31,35,52,55,57,63,67,82, and 84 of Brother George, and #37,49,66,6/,73,74 and 77 of Brother Brandon, you would be able to discern the answers you are looking for rather then jumping to an antagonistic and sarcastic question. There is more spiritual truth in those responses then a lot of everything else in this thread, not to mention getting way off topic because of sinful personality disagreements.

Gord, I think it might be wise for you to be cautious of your responses. Atlas has a valid point that should be addressed: Dr. Estep is wrong on this point, without a doubt, and no one is arguing that; it's the method and the vehemence that are in question (by me, anyway), and the extent to which he takes this issue (by Atlas).

Lots of Bible verses != spirituality

[Gord]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

Gord, I think it might be wise for you to be cautious of your responses. Atlas has a valid point that should be addressed: Dr. Estep is wrong on this point, without a doubt, and no one is arguing that; it's the method and the vehemence that are in question (by me, anyway), and the extent to which he takes this issue (by Atlas).

Lots of Bible verses != spirituality

I do not disagree with you, I just wanted to use the proverbial 4x4 to hopefully allow some prayerful reflection, great points and information permeates this thread by all who have participated, but the tone and inflection is beginning to distract from the truth.

[atlas]

Gord,

I just wanted to use the proverbial 4x4 to hopefully allow some prayerful reflection

Thank you George, I hope some of this wisdom rubs off on some others around here with the 'stinking thinking' syndrom.

Maybe you should take your own advice. I never accused you of " stinking thinking. "

Maybe you need a little prayerful reflection as opposed to name calling.

All I did was ask a very simple question it was not an antagonistic or sarcastic question. You have attacked me on about 3 or 4 post and I have no idea as to why.

but the tone and inflection is beginning to distract from the truth.

This is what I posted before I ask the question. Is this what you call " stinking thinking? "

That being said I think I will have to agree on most of what you said. He was off base on this issue, way off base. That dose not make him a non Bible believer. That makes him a false teacher on this issue. I believe Dr. Estep is a saved God called preacher. I have listened to him for years. He like Dr. Ruckman have their problems. He is also very good on most issues. On this one issue I think we should avoid this teaching at all cost.

I was not overly nice, but I was not mean in this reply. Nor is my simple question mean. It's just a simple question. You can take you 4X4elsewhere.


Atlas

[atlas]

opps double post