[greenbear]

I was trying to find evidence of when Hebrews was written and I came across a site that looked great for the first couple of paragraphs, using the phrase "rightly dividing" and the author was of the opinion that Paul was the author of Hebrews. Then he started talking about how 95% of original manuscripts put the general epistles except for Hebrews, after Acts, then place Hebrews after II Thessalonians and before I Timothy. He doesn't go into manuscript evidence but I assume it is largely not from the received text. He states his reasons why he believes Hebrews was written during his first Roman imprisonment and his reasons make some sense. He argues that Hebrews was actually written to gentiles. He gives some fairly decent arguments for that, you would have to read the article. I'm not sure how he gets past the title of the book, though! I don't think he's right. Another possibility is that Hebrews is written to the Jews in churches in areas where Paul had authority over gentile churches and perhaps piggybacked to that is the future application to the tribulation church, if there is such a thing. The author's conclusion is that the book of Hebrews should be included in the "Mystery of God" revealed to Paul. Even if the author is correct on when and who Hebrews is written by, I don't believe that the order of the books of the Bible have to be presented in chronological order. Hebrews seems not to fit with Paul's Mystery. I've never understood the book of Hebrews as I should.

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4

[kevinvw]

First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name, just like the book of Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc. It's foolish to say that it was written to gentiles unless you don't believe in an inspired inerrant Bible which this man obviously doesn't.

Another thing is that he seems to have found the "originals" which have been lost for 2000 years. Our Bible does not need to be reordered and is in perfect order according to pre-millennial theology which is the only correct way to interpret the Bible. Hebrews was more than likely, just like James, written before any doctrine to the church was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ.

[chette777]

Ditto written to Hebrews.

I place it where it is as a transitional book from church age to tribulation.

lots of application for the church. be careful as there is at least 8 times the Author(possibly Paul) that has what looks like a kingdom Gospel twist to it.

Hebrews is a wonderful and exciting book to study.

[Brother Tim]

Kevin stated:

First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name,

My Bible reads:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Nowhere in this introduction are the recipients named. The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture. It was assigned that title by men as a way of delineating sections of Scripture. There is a difference.

By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it. If God did not put the writer's name in the book, then we do not need to try to figure it out. It is unimportant.

[chette777]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it.

Of course the whole Bible is Authored by God via inspiration everyone knows that.

It is important to know why God did not allow the author (the person God used to pen it) of this book to be known. nothing is unimportant in God's word

I am not sure that my facts are correct so I don't want to say this absolute authority. but I think Hebrews is the only book in the Bible that the author (the person God used to pen it) is not known. before you jump and say Job, read Job again there is a place where the author identifies himself.

Title and verse numbers and chapter division by most feel they are just of men. But if God has given us the KJV complete with these titles and divisions and numbering I believe they in that case are inspired and preserved as such for a reason. there is no reason for us not to believe it is Paul as the KJV name says it is Paul

GreenBear,

When you read Hebrews look at the words especially endure to the end, overcome, etc. then read Rev 1-3. I believe these are Jewish tribulation Churches being spoken of in that book of prophecy are also addressed in Hebrews. Not just historical locations that also had Jewish churches in the past. Seeing John was in the spirit on "the Lord's Day" Rev1:10 referring to a future time he writes to churches in a future time. there never was any proof historically that John ever wrote and sent to seven churches that which is written in Rev1-3. but we do have this book of prophecy still yet to be fulfilled and in that time they will need to endure, overcome to receive the reward of life and other benefits.

David Walker does a good job of showing the transitional nature of Hebrews in his book "Dispensatinalism"

now having shared what I believe with Greenbear, I know there are some of you who don't agree but at this moment it is not really up for debate. It is just a statement of a moderate dispensationalist.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

Kevin stated:
My Bible reads:
Nowhere in this introduction are the recipients named. The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture. It was assigned that title by men as a way of delineating sections of Scripture. There is a difference.

By the way, the Author is the Holy Ghost, not Paul or Timothy or whoever else men speculate wrote it. If God did not put the writer's name in the book, then we do not need to try to figure it out. It is unimportant.

The "Title" of the book is not inspired Scripture.

I've always thought of the titles as being preserved or inspired. But I don't know.

[Ripdood]

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4

Sister Greenbear,

The two men mentioned on the article Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D. and David Sielaff, are connected with an organization called the Worldwide Church of God. They are not as active these days as they used to be. But back in the 1980s they were classified as a cult by mainstream denominations. Herbert w. Armstrong was the founder. They were very good at twisting the facts of the Word of God and making it look very scholarly to accomplish their purposes. They were and are in favor of the new per-versions, because the wording in those works of satan make it easy to prove their unscriptural beliefs. They are still around but not as large or well organized as they once were.

I tried witnessing to one of their members once it was an excercise in chasing word definitions. The same terms we use are defined differently in their beliefs. I planted the seed I am not sure how well it took, I never saw the fellow again.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by chette777

Ditto written to Hebrews.

I place it where it is as a transitional book from church age to tribulation.

lots of application for the church. be careful as there is at least 8 times the Author(possibly Paul) that has what looks like a kingdom Gospel twist to it.

Hebrews is a wonderful and exciting book to study.

I had never heard of a tribulational church before I read you mention it. Definitely not church doctrine after Paul's Mystery. I look forward to studying it I would just like to get an idea when Paul wrote it, and to understand for myself all of the reasons most teachers I agree with say Paul wrote it.

[greenbear]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

First of all, the book of Hebrews is written to Hebrews because that's who it addresses in the name, just like the book of Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, etc. It's foolish to say that it was written to gentiles unless you don't believe in an inspired inerrant Bible which this man obviously doesn't.

Another thing is that he seems to have found the "originals" which have been lost for 2000 years. Our Bible does not need to be reordered and is in perfect order according to pre-millennial theology which is the only correct way to interpret the Bible. Hebrews was more than likely, just like James, written before any doctrine to the church was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ.

Yes, it's obviously written to Hebrews, hence it's name! He sure has more respect for the corrupt manuscript streams than the received text and the KJB. I couldn't agree more that our Bible is in the correct order. I don't see how it could be written before Paul's ministry to the gentiles started, though.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by greenbear

I was trying to find evidence of when Hebrews was written and I came across a site that looked great for the first couple of paragraphs, using the phrase "rightly dividing" and the author was of the opinion that Paul was the author of Hebrews. Then he started talking about how 95% of original manuscripts put the general epistles except for Hebrews, after Acts, then place Hebrews after II Thessalonians and before I Timothy. He doesn't go into manuscript evidence but I assume it is largely not from the received text. He states his reasons why he believes Hebrews was written during his first Roman imprisonment and his reasons make some sense. He argues that Hebrews was actually written to gentiles. He gives some fairly decent arguments for that, you would have to read the article. I'm not sure how he gets past the title of the book, though! I don't think he's right. Another possibility is that Hebrews is written to the Jews in churches in areas where Paul had authority over gentile churches and perhaps piggybacked to that is the future application to the tribulation church, if there is such a thing. The author's conclusion is that the book of Hebrews should be included in the "Mystery of God" revealed to Paul. Even if the author is correct on when and who Hebrews is written by, I don't believe that the order of the books of the Bible have to be presented in chronological order. Hebrews seems not to fit with Paul's Mystery. I've never understood the book of Hebrews as I should.

If you check this guys website he's all about restoring the Original Bible
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040901.htm#_ftn4

Jen, using Isaiah 28:9-13 as our method, we see the following:

Paul wrote Hebrews:

Hebrews 13:19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.
24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul was the greatest of all the apostles, as he was given the revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ kept hidden from the foundation of the world. Not only was he given the revelation of this, he was also the custodian and revealer of the three Biblical dispensations, (not Scofield's "7"); He closed the door on "time past" and was given the apostleship of "but now" but what many dispensationalists miss in studying 4 dispensations the Bible does not define(4 of Scofiled's) is that Paul was the "master builder" who ushered in Tribulation doctrine to the Jews by writing the first book of Tribulation doctrine for "ages to come".

No other apostle is named as being held captive in Rome("...Italy...") nor is any other apostle so closely associated with Timothy as Timothy was saved under the ministering of the Gospel to him by Paul(...mine own son after the faith...")

Hebrews was written to Hebrews at the start of the Tribulation, and only an Armstrongite, Mormon, Baptist, Protestant, Charismatic, Catholic, who either 1. Teaches salvation by works, 2. Teaches salvation for the Body can be lost, 3. Is an enemy of dispensational teaching, would dare say Hebrews was written to "Gentiles":

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
De 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

We are adopted sons of Abraham, adopted sons of God, but we are the heirs of no literal geographical promises or blessings, as Gentiles we have no "fathers". Hebrews has a distinct Jewish tone from start to finish, and is doctrinally inclined towards the Jewish Messianic/Apostolic Church of the 12 apostles in the Acts 1-7 period and the future Tribulation/Millenium.

Hebrews is a Tribulation book as Paul points out:

Heb. 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Six thousand years of history, then one thousand of glorious Millennial reign. These Hebrews are on the verge of entering it, first seven years of torment must be endured. Those who "confess their sins", endure to the end, and don't take the Mark OF The Beast will have their sins blotted out at the beginning of this great time of refreshing that will come from the presence of the Lord(Acts 3). No other explanation is tenable and if we rightly divide the word, study precept upon precept, it all falls into place, otherwise we are allegorizing as Rome does.

Grace and peace sister

Tony