[toiwnz]

I know that after posting this that many will say that I'm not "rightly dividing the word of truth." Many teachers and preachers have presented doctrines and teachings that have corrupted people's minds from the simplicity that is in Christ. Sometimes people make things that are simple, so complex and complicated. My point is Jesus said He would return again and the angels testified "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"(Acts 1:11). That seem simple enough but in today's society Jesus' second coming is made to be (by man) a very complicated topic that few understand. So I'll get to the point. This is what the scriptures say

Events of Revelation 11:15-18 (7th[last] trumpet)

SIZE="2"]15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.[/SIZE]

1-Kingdoms of this world become the Lords
2-Jesus reigns forever
3-God’s wrath comes
4-The time of the dead that they should be judged
5-Prophets, Saints, small & great receive their reward
6-He destroys them that destroy the world.

Scriptures that confirm these events
1-Zechariah 14:9
2-Jeremiah 23:5, I Corinthians 15:25, II Timothy 2:12, Revelation
19:6
3-I Thessalonians 2:16, Colossians 3:6, Ephesians 5:6, Romans 1:18, Isaiah 13:9-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, II Peter 2:9, Job 21:30,
Isaiah 26:19-21, Matthew 3:7
4-Matthew 25:31-46, Daniel 12:2, Matthew 12:36, John 5:22,27-29, Romans 14:10, Hebrews 9:27 I Peter 4:5, II Timothy 4:1,
John12:48, John 6:39,40,44,54, John 11:24
II Corinthians 5:10, II Peter 2:9, Romans 2:16, Jude 1:15,
Isaiah 26:19
5- Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12, Luke 6:35, Luke 6:23,
Mark 9:41, Matthew 5:12
6- Zechariah 14:3,12, Isaiah 13:9-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18,
II Peter 2:9, Job 21:30, Isaiah 26:19-21,
Matthew 3:7

http://www.ritualabusefree.org/BS13-The%20Day%20of%20the%20Lord.htm

36. > IF WE MAKE FURTHER COMPARISON WE CAN SEE THAT REV. 11:15-18 IS DESCRIBING THE SAME EVENT AS MATT. 24:30-31 AND 1 THESS. 4:16-17. JAMES MCKEEVER HAS IDENTIFIED 5 EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE IN ALL THREE OF THESE PASSAGES.
1. Christ appears in the air
2. There are Loud Voices
3. There is a Trumpet
4. The Dead Christians rise
5. The Alive Christians are caught up.

(Revelation 11:15-18 KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. {16} And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, {17} Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. {18} And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

In verse 15 of this passage, we see the seventh angel blowing the trumpet. In that same verse, we also see the loud voices. This shout from heaven will join the shout from earth heralding the returning King.....Then a very interesting thing is stated; it says that Jesus Christ begins to reign on the earth as the seventh trumpet blows (verse 17) and the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of Christ (verse 15). If Christ is going to come down to the earth and begin to reign, He has to appear in the air. This is the third of the five things that we are looking for at the rapture. In verse 18, we see the dead Christians being judged. They are not going to be judged while they are still in their graves, of course, so there is the resurrection of the dead Christians. We also see that the Lord is going to reward those Christians who are still alive. Also in verse 18, we see the battle of Armageddon, wherein Jesus is going to 'destroy those who destroy the earth'. If the seventh trumpet-the last trumpet in the Bible-had been a plague of grasshoppers or some such thing, this would all fall apart. (Dr. James McKeever, THE RAPTURE BOOK-VICTORY IN THE END TIMES, Omega Publications, p. 91-92)


37. > (1 Corinthians 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
> THE BIBLE PLAINLY STATES THAT JESUS WILL GATHER THE CHURCH AND RAISE THE DEAD AT THE LAST TRUMPET. THE BIBLE ALSO PLAINLY STATES THAT SEVEN ANGELS WILL BLOW THEIR TRUMPETS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION. TO TEACH THAT THE CHURCH WILL BE GATHERED ANY TIME BEFORE THE SEVENTH TRUMPET WOULD BE A PLAIN CONTRADICTION OF SCRIPTURE.




GOD PROMISED NOAH THAT AS LONG AS THE EARTH REMAINED THERE WOULD BE TIME AND SEASONS.
(Genesis 8:22 KJV) While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter,
and day and night shall not cease.
(Revelation 10:5-7 KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, {6} And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: {7} But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

A.> WE WILL SEE THAT TIME WILL COME TO AN END WITH THE SOUNDING OF THE SEVENTH TRUMPET BECAUSE GOD IS GOING TO DO A MIRACLE IN THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS THAT WE USE TO MEASURE TIME AS WE KNOW IT.

B.> PAUL SHOWS US THE MYSTERY THAT WILL BE FINISHED AT THE SOUNDING OF THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET.
(1 Corinthians 15:50-53 KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. {51} Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

6. > GOD WILL BE TRUE TO THIS PROMISE TO NOAH BECAUSE HE WILL MELT THIS PRESENT HEAVENS AND EARTH BEFORE HE DOES AWAY WITH TIME AS WE KNOW IT.
(2 Peter 3:10-13 KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, {12} Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


IF WE BELIEVE JESUS' WORDS WE CANNOT TEACH THAT THERE WILL BE A SEPARATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS FROM THE WICKED SEVEN YEARS BEFORE THE END OF THIS WORLD.

(Matthew 13:24-30 KJV) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: {25} But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. {26} But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. {27} So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? {28} He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? {29} But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. {30} Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

(Matthew 13:36-43 KJV) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. {37} He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; {38} The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; {39} The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. {40} As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. {41} The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; {42} And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. {43} Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I know many disagree. But we are told to endure until the end Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13. How can we endure until the end if we're taken away 7 years before the end? So may say well it doesn't matter if you believe the rapture is before, during, or after the tribulation just as long as you believe Jesus is coming back. But their is a subtle danger in pre trib.

It contradicts the plain teaching of scripture. The Second Coming, the rapture, and the resurrection of the dead occur at the same time, on the last day. 1 Th 4:14 -18, John 6:39 ff.
The idea that the church will not go through the great tribulation ignores those Christians who have been martyred down through the ages and those Christians now undergoing persecution throughout the world. It is a doctrine that could only survive in an environment where the church is not currently undergoing persecution.
If the pre-trib rapture doctrine is false then it means that many Christians will be unprepared for tribulation and persecution when it comes upon them. What makes the church in the West so special that it will not undergo persecution?
It fosters complacency within the church and in the world. It gives those left behind a second chance and is less likely to encourage evangelism and missionary effort because the great commission will be fulfilled by the 144,000 and the two witnesses rather than the church. The job of the Great Commission belongs to the Church

In the West we live in a society where there is little persecution against Christians, there is opposition, but it is mainly intellectual in nature. In the workplace this may become more personal, I well remember the surprise in a young Christian when she was discriminated against by her supervisor because she was a Christian. I would suggest that persecution is a normal part of Christian experience, they persecuted Jesus and they will persecute us (John 15:20). We should also note that Jesus promises great reward, in heaven, for those who are persecuted (Mat 5:10-12).

[chette777]

I will need to read your post more and study up. but from what I see is that this is a post tribulational comment by McKeever. If we have to endure then our salvation is not complete in Christ and our salvation is not by faith alone but also of works in this case enduring. there is truly no dispensational division being done here but a combining of scripture to make this teaching.

In Matthew it is Jews, not the body of Christ, that are told to endure compare with Rev 2-3 which is are also Jewish churches. the tribulation is Gods wrath pour out on unbelieving man and the finishing of Israel's Chastisement.

Paul teaches we are saved from the wrath. Namely because Christ bore the wrath of God's judgement for our sins on the cross.

these are just a few of the verse that come to mind as our not going through any part of the 7 year Tribulation

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

[toiwnz]

Originally Posted by chette777

I will need to read your post more and study up. but from what I see is that this is a post tribulational comment by McKeever. If we have to endure then our salvation is not complete in Christ and our salvation is not by faith alone but also of works in this case enduring. there is truly no dispensational division being done here but a combining of scripture to make this teaching.

In Matthew it is Jews, not the body of Christ, that are told to endure compare with Rev 2-3 which is are also Jewish churches. the tribulation is Gods wrath pour out on unbelieving man and the finishing of Israel's Chastisement.

Paul teaches we are saved from the wrath. Namely because Christ bore the wrath of God's judgement for our sins on the cross.

these are just a few of the verse that come to mind as our not going through any part of the 7 year Tribulation

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yes I agree we are saved from wrath but not from tribulation. If they persecuted Jesus then they will do the same to us. Tribulation is a norm in the life of a Christian. But it seems that people don't have faith in God's power. Can God not pour out His wrath on the wicked and destroy the world without removing the saints? He did it before with Noah. And He left Israel in Egypt while He poure out His wrath. And one would have to agree that I Th 5:9 and Romans 5:9 all though they say we are save and not appointed to wrath, they DO NOT say you will not go through tribulation or the great tribulation.

Going back to Revelation 11. It's hard to deny the events that happen when that 7th Trumpet sounds. The events describe go right along with what Jesus and many others said would happen when He returns. And how can one deny the words of the angel in Chapter 10. He said there would be time no longer after the 7th angel sounded. God promised Noah that while the earth remained that there would be time. But we know that when Jesus comes that the sun and moon are confounded and the earth is destroyed so that doesn't break God's promise to Noah. But more importantly the angel said when the 7th angel sounded that the Mystery of God should be finished as He declared to his servants the prophets. That includes Daniel, Ezekiel, Even John (who is writing this stuff down).

Rev 11 goes with 1 Cor15 and I Thess 4.

But please answer about the parables of Matthew 13 where Jesus said that the harvest is NOT until the END of the world.

[chette777]

we will have tribulation in this world however the 7 year tribulation we are saved from because that is God wrath being poured out on unbelieving sinful world and they will face God eternal wrath also. you seem to be confusing normal daily tribulation and the Great 7 year Tribulation as one event. that would mean that every time you see the word tribulation you are making it the same event. but you were able to separate it. the 7 year wrath is laid out in Revelation if it were not cut short not even Israel would survive

Christian life tribulation is part of our existence. But the 7 year wrath of God is not for us we are saved from that. this is what is known as pre tribulational rapture.

Matthew 24-26 are concerning Israel not Church Age Saints in the Body of Christ. Rev 11 does not line up with 1Cor15 unless you switch Israel and the body of Christ. the events of the Gathering have nothing to do with Revelation 11.

The events of Daniel and Ezekiel and Zechariah also have nothing to do with the body of Christ. it all concerns Israel. the seven year tribulation is dealing with Israel the Body of Christ has been removed at the beginning of this time period or dispensation.

if you interpret Matthew, Revelation, Daniel et al as the church you would get the teaching you are advocating. we are not Israel we are the body of Christ it is just that simple. you must separate the two then do you own study don't rely on those men to give you the truth. They are handleing the word of God in unrighteousness. I will not listen to them for one minute once I realize what they are advocating.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is the only way you will see the truth. But you came into the post already knowing that you were not rightly dividing, and I quote, "I know that after posting this that many will say that I'm not "rightly dividing the word of truth." That is what you were expecting. No Bible Believer is going to fall for your trickery.

the teaching Mckeean and the other Pastor's you claim are teaching this are advocating a false teaching concerning the rapture. it is known as Mid trib rapture of Post Trib rapture. No true Bible believer could believe in those and be a true Bible believer. No matter how many Godly men or scholarly men are advocating such errors.

True KJV Bible believing Christians who rightly divides the Bible believes in a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE AND A PRE-MILLENIAL RETURN OF CHRIST.

[CKG]

From Thomas Ice;

I recall yearsago meeting and talking with the late Jim McKeever at a Christian Book Sellersconvention in the early 90s. Hemade the "last trumpet" argument to me at that time. Later I read his book entitled Christian Will Go ThroughThe Tribulation.[1] Judging from the title, I thought itwould be a biblical treatise providing through reasoning to support the book'stitle. It was any thing but that!

To read the entire article, click on the following link:
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=175

Also see:
http://www.purewords.org/sojourner/html/trumpets.htm

[toiwnz]

Originally Posted by chette777

we will have tribulation in this world however the 7 year tribulation we are saved from because that is God wrath being poured out on unbelieving sinful world and they will face God eternal wrath also. you seem to be confusing normal daily tribulation and the Great 7 year Tribulation as one event. that would mean that every time you see the word tribulation you are making it the same event. but you were able to separate it. the 7 year wrath is laid out in Revelation if it were not cut short not even Israel would survive

Christian life tribulation is part of our existence. But the 7 year wrath of God is not for us we are saved from that. this is what is known as pre tribulational rapture.

Matthew 24-26 are concerning Israel not Church Age Saints in the Body of Christ. Rev 11 does not line up with 1Cor15 unless you switch Israel and the body of Christ. the events of the Gathering have nothing to do with Revelation 11.

The events of Daniel and Ezekiel and Zechariah also have nothing to do with the body of Christ. it all concerns Israel. the seven year tribulation is dealing with Israel the Body of Christ has been removed at the beginning of this time period or dispensation.

if you interpret Matthew, Revelation, Daniel et al as the church you would get the teaching you are advocating. we are not Israel we are the body of Christ it is just that simple. you must separate the two then do you own study don't rely on those men to give you the truth. They are handleing the word of God in unrighteousness. I will not listen to them for one minute once I realize what they are advocating.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is the only way you will see the truth. But you came into the post already knowing that you were not rightly dividing, and I quote, "I know that after posting this that many will say that I'm not "rightly dividing the word of truth." That is what you were expecting. No Bible Believer is going to fall for your trickery.

the teaching Mckeean and the other Pastor's you claim are teaching this are advocating a false teaching concerning the rapture. it is known as Mid trib rapture of Post Trib rapture. No true Bible believer could believe in those and be a true Bible believer. No matter how many Godly men or scholarly men are advocating such errors.

True KJV Bible believing Christians who rightly divides the Bible believes in a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL RAPTURE AND A PRE-MILLENIAL RETURN OF CHRIST.

I stop posting on this site and another a while back for personal reasons which are confirmed by response above and others. Like I told others, being a Marine has put a thick layer of skin on me but to be called a Non-bible believer because I don't agree with a Highley debated subject, by another Brother in Christ is hurtful. I believe in God the Father. God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. I believe that He sent His only begotten Son to this Earth. I believe His Son Jesus died on the cross because of my sins and I blieve He rose on the third day. I believe He ascended to Heaven and sits on the right hand of God the Father and I believe that He is returning to this Earth.

To be called hairbrained, non-bible believer, and other names by Christian Brothers and sister is one of the most hurtful things a Christian can expierence. I'm not trying do any trickery or deceive people. And you guys don't have to worry about me any more. I'm truly hurt by this expierence but that doesn't change the fact that we're brothers and sisters in Christ. So I ask that you guys pray for me because God has seen fit that I go to Afghanistan in a week in a half. Pray that He uses me to bring glory to His name. Once again I'm sorry for hurting you and I am a Believer, a True Bible believing, God fearing, Christ Loving, Child of God.

[Samuel]

I have studied this subject for years have read, and know the scriptural support for each position. Each position has its margin of support from scriptures, a lot depends on your doctrinal, and personal bias.

There is only one verse that supports a 7 year tribulation period, and again it depends on how that is interpreted. This subject has caused more division among freinds, hurt feelings, and even Church splits than any other. I wont even state my opinion on the subject, because it will disagree with the many.

Its best to say our Lord promised he would return for us, and to believe his promise is true. If we have to suffer or not!, it won't be anything to compare with the suffering he has already done for us.

[Kiwi Christian]

I don't believe that the body of Christ will go through the time of Jacob's trouble, and this "last trumpet" argument is full of holes, which in no way makes it holy!


The phrase "last trumpet" is totally absent from scripture, the closest you will find is the "last trump" in 1 Corinthians 15:52. The last trump does NOT mean the last trumpet, it means it is the last blow (trump) on a trumpet.

The word "trump" is only found twice in scripture, both times it is at the rapture of the church in 1 Cori 15:52 & 1 Thess 4:16, and this trump is identified as the "trump of God", not the trump of an angel:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When this "trump of God" is blown, the rapture will take place and God's people, Christians, will ascend to heaven.

There is also a rapture of tribulation saints (not the body of Christ) that takes place in Revelation 11:12, which is just before the 2nd advent of Christ:

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Notice how it's several verses later "the seventh angel sounded" in Rev 11:13-15, and there is no rapture mentioned, the rapture has already taken place 3 verses earlier before the angel even sounded!

Revelation 11: 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angel sounds the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium, it has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation rapture of church age saints, or any rapture for that matter.

The "last trump" could sound any day now!

[toiwnz]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian

I don't believe that the body of Christ will go through the time of Jacob's trouble, and this "last trumpet" argument is full of holes, which in no way makes it holy!


The phrase "last trumpet" is totally absent from scripture, the closest you will find is the "last trump" in 1 Corinthians 15:52. The last trump does NOT mean the last trumpet, it means it is the last blow (trump) on a trumpet.

The word "trump" is only found twice in scripture, both times it is at the rapture of the church in 1 Cori 15:52 & 1 Thess 4:16, and this trump is identified as the "trump of God", not the trump of an angel:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When this "trump of God" is blown, the rapture will take place and God's people, Christians, will ascend to heaven.

There is also a rapture of tribulation saints (not the body of Christ) that takes place in Revelation 11:12, which is just before the 2nd advent of Christ:

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Notice how it's several verses later "the seventh angel sounded" in Rev 11:13-15, and there is no rapture mentioned, the rapture has already taken place 3 verses earlier before the angel even sounded!

Revelation 11: 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angel sounds the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium, it has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation rapture of church age saints, or any rapture for that matter.

The "last trump" could sound any day now!

The name God is totally absent from the book of Esther. Does that mean He doesn't exsist? Absouletly NOT. I'm sure you here all the time "the phrase rapture is not in the Bible" Does that mean it's not going to happen? The phrase last trumpet is not there, I agree. But since when does last not mean last, final, end, no more after. And I don't see where last trump means last note or sound. Why can't last trump simply mean last trump?

As for a rapture of tribulation saints where is that coming from? So how many raptures are there total? People over spiritualise a lot. Revelation 11:12- the voice from heaven is speaking to these two witnesses. Just like in Revelation 4:1 John is the only one being spoken two when told to come up hither not the whole church. And remember that He was in the Spirit when getting the Revelation of Jesus not the flesh. And still even if these are rapture scriptures, they don't prove a pre trib rapture.

The burden of proof lies with Pre trib. Constantly through out scriptures we are told that the ressurection is on the last day. In John 6, Jesus said multiple times He would raise people up on the last day. Many try to discredit Martha and say she wasn't educated In John 11:24 but she confirmed the ressurection at the last day. Once again since when did LAST stop being last? A lot of things are read into scriptures for a pre-trib rapture. Both explanations of the catching up of the saints in Corinthians and Thessalonians are LOUD, Visible events agreing with Jesus when He said every eye shall see Him. And just like lighting strikes so will His coming. But pre-trib teachers would have you believe that only the saints here these things and not the rest of the world. You don't find that in the scriptures.

It's hard to deny scriptures like Matthew 13, John 17:15,20, Psalm 37:9-11, Proverbs 2:21-22

Clearly PROVERBS 10:30-The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

And enduring is not a works based salvation. If it were then Jesus wouldn't have said it. Enduring is simply having faith, faint not, encouraging one another.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by toiwnz

The name God is totally absent from the book of Esther. Does that mean He doesn't exsist? Absouletly NOT. I'm sure you here all the time "the phrase rapture is not in the Bible" Does that mean it's not going to happen? The phrase last trumpet is not there, I agree. But since when does last not mean last, final, end, no more after. And I don't see where last trump means last note or sound. Why can't last trump simply mean last trump?

Brother, the point I was making is that the "last trump" on a trumpet doesn't mean it is the "last trumpet". The last trump of 1 Cori 15 & 1 Thess 4 is not the seventh and last trumpet of Rev 11, the last trump calling up the body of Christ actually blows some time before the 1st trumpet goes off during the tribulation.

Don't take all this personally bro, it's not worth it. Some will use harsh words against what you have posted because they, and I, believe it is a gross error being taught in the church today.

God bless your tour of duty!