[boaz212]

I found the link to Edward F. Hill's book while searching for informations my friend is looking for. Maybe this link will be a blessing to someone else too.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/KJV_Defended_Hills.html

One question he had was "How do you know the text which KJB was based on is preserved by God?"
I haven't had time to read Edward Hill's book yet. But can anyone explain to me in simple terms how do we know the texts they were using to translate the KJB were preserved by God? Thanks for your help.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by boaz212

I found the link to Edward F. Hill's book while searching for informations my friend is looking for. Maybe this link will be a blessing to someone else too.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/KJV_Defended_Hills.html

One question he had was "How do you know the text which KJB was based on is preserved by God?"
I haven't had time to read Edward Hill's book yet. But can anyone explain to me in simple terms how do we know the texts they were using to translate the KJB were preserved by God? Thanks for your help.

Tim, the texts, versions, commentaries, etc., for the OT and the NT that forms the basis for the KJV were scattered, and I don't mean randomly, but PROLIFERATED all over 3 continents and is present in over 5000 Greek and 8000 Latin manuscipts.

The corrupted Alexandrian text is 45 manuscripts largely localized to the area of Egypt. John Burgon and others have stated rather dogmatically and based on their scholarship that the Alexandrian manuscripts and readings can be traced to ONE AUTHOR, Origen.

We have here a seeming paradox: Majority Text manuscripts are "late" in age but in the thousands. Alexandrian manuscripts are "early" but less than 50. Why?

The Alexandrian manuscripts were never used. They were rejected.

The Majority text was written on cheap materials that favored their reproduction into the thousands. They wore out and were replaced. The Alexandrian were written on expensive animal skins but never copied. Why is there not 10,000 manuscripts for the Alexandrian to "compete" with the Majority/ Byzantine text if the Alexandrian is the "correct original"?

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

I may have Hill's book as a pdf or text file, if I do I will email it to you.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

[boaz212]

Thanks Tony for the explanation. This helps.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by boaz212

Thanks Tony for the explanation. This helps.

Tim, the "MVs", Original Manuscript Frauds, Alexandrian Cultists, whatever you weant to call them, try their best to deflect you from something they are scared to death of: The Scriptures themselves. They want to embroil you in arguments over this point and that point and this manuscript and that manuscript They create a false foundation that they will claim you are standing on and then they will try to demolish it, that's called a Straw Man Argument, set up a scarecrow so then you can knock it down.

You must deal with these people in a manner Christ-like but speak from authority, do NOT give them the initiative. That's becasue our time is limited, we are ambassadors and don;t have time for demon possessed girls to follow us and say, he speaks for the most high God. Paul cast the demon out in an instant, demolish their arguments in the same manner and move on. What I told you about the early-late paradox with the two manuscript families, burn that into your brain. They make a big thing out of how, but never touch on why.

The bible version battle is an important one, but not our main one. George, BP, POTW, are brothers I am adding my voice to: We are ambassadors for Christ, ministers of the reconciliation. When someone tries to bring up the authpority of the Scriptures in your hand, all they are doing is saying what Satan did in Genesis 3: Why, yes, did God say that?

Did He say 1 John 5: 7?

Grace and peace to you. I think you are a good soldier my friend.

Tony

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

T try their best to deflect you from something they are scared to death of: The Scriptures themselves.

this is so true. not just of so called believers. but I have experience this in the last 4 months a surprising phenomenon amongst men I had been witnessing to. when they here I am a Christians Pastor it seems like no big deal they like titles so for them it is nothing really. but as soon ans I quote scriptures and start focusing them on the sin and the truth of the Bible. they suddenly will say, "let's talk about it another time" or "there's no need to talk about that".

it is the first time since I was saved and been witnessing that I have heard that from men as I begin to touch the real problem of man sin and the truth of Gods word. They seemed to be literally afraid of the Scriptures.

One man asked if I had any single women in the States I could introduce to him. I said yes but that he didn't meet their requirements nor mine for me to recommend him. then I said all single Christians ladies I know want a man who is serving the Lord in his own life and fear God. I then began to explain that they want a man who has Jesus in their hearts and was leading the conversation to hopefully lead him to the Lord. I quoted one scripture to make my point.

Immediately he said "there is no need to talk about that". I have heard those same words from totally different men on at least four occasions since January

Originally Posted by chette777

this is so true. not just of so called believers. but I have experience this in the last 4 months a surprising phenomenon amongst men I had been witnessing to. when they here I am a Christians Pastor it seems like no big deal they like titles so for them it is nothing really. but as soon ans I quote scriptures and start focusing them on the sin and the truth of the Bible. they suddenly will say, "let's talk about it another time" or "there's no need to talk about that".

it is the first time since I was saved and been witnessing that I have heard that from men as I begin to touch the real problem of man sin and the truth of Gods word. They seemed to be literally afraid of the Scriptures.

I think you are right brother, and deep down I think they hate the Bible, too.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by chette777

this is so true. not just of so called believers. but I have experience this in the last 4 months a surprising phenomenon amongst men I had been witnessing to. when they here I am a Christians Pastor it seems like no big deal they like titles so for them it is nothing really. but as soon ans I quote scriptures and start focusing them on the sin and the truth of the Bible. they suddenly will say, "let's talk about it another time" or "there's no need to talk about that".

it is the first time since I was saved and been witnessing that I have heard that from men as I begin to touch the real problem of man sin and the truth of Gods word. They seemed to be literally afraid of the Scriptures.

One man asked if I had any single women in the States I could introduce to him. I said yes but that he didn't meet their requirements nor mine for me to recommend him. then I said all single Christians ladies I know want a man who is serving the Lord in his own life and fear God. I then began to explain that they want a man who has Jesus in their hearts and was leading the conversation to hopefully lead him to the Lord. I quoted one scripture to make my point.

Immediately he said "there is no need to talk about that". I have heard those same words from totally different men on at least four occasions since January

Chette, there is nothing I can say that's any better than this:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You talk to these men and they do not accept the spiritual world of God, it's all unreal to them. They have a strong interest in things of the flesh, but what you have to say to them means nothing.

2Ch 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

Israel ignored and mocked God and paid for it. In the street ministry every weekend we might have 40 people in one night do the same thing as these men did with you. We grow tired in our weariness and wonder, why all this stubborn refusal of something free, something good, and we may dispair, but be refreshed in this knowledge:

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Brother, men stand on the stony ground of their own hearts and willfully refuse the salvation offered to them.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

No one who has ever walked the face of this earth has ever escaped the word of God. They have no excuse, they cannot say that they were "never told" and this next Scripture bears witness to that:

Exekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
7 And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.

Whether the lost world will listen or whether they mock us, they will know that a prophet of God has spoken to them. From the hour you became a Christian to your last breath, preach the gospel of Christ, because as you see in my signature, not one word of His will return unto him void.

And your preaching is not in vain:

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

Brother, these people have a seed in them when you preach to them the Unknown God of Acts 17, for He is unknown to them. Preach, and let them digest. Another will water, maybe some will let their hearts stay hard and choke the seed. Others will take root and God will give the increase 100 fold. You are a sower, go forth bearing precious seed with tears, but sow, and continue to sow and don;t worry if you don't see results always. The things invisible are eternal, what we see is temporary, we walk by faith therefore and not by sight.

God bless you this day, and all days.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

[bibleprotector]

I have adapted Edward Hill's ideas from his excellent book:

The Scripture states, “Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” (2 Thess. 3:1, 2).

Since we believe in Christ, we may inquire how it is that we do so. By this inquiry, we shall lay out the logic of faith. This idea was largely given by the great defender of the King James Bible, Edward Hills. Since the Gospel itself is true, the following conclusions must follow:

1. The Bible is God’s infallibly inspired Word. Since our salvation depends on believing in Christ, God must have supplied us with an infallible record of who Christ is, so that we may reasonably believe the Gospel.

2. All Scripture has been preserved through time by God’s providence, because the God who inspired infallibly must be able to preserve through time, and must have done so deliberately.

3. There must be, therefore, great attestation in many manuscripts in many places to the providentially preserved text, and that in public use.

4. It must be a fact that the providential preservation did not cease with the invention of the printing press, or with the translating from the original languages into the common tongues in the Reformation.

5. When we believe in Christ, the logic of faith points to the Masoretic Hebrew textual family and the Textus Receptus textual family.

6. Furthermore, since Christ has been believed in the Reformation, and by languages understood by the people, the logic of faith points to the derived translations from the Received Text.

7. And most specifically, the logic of faith points to the King James Bible as the supersuccessionary form of the Scripture, that is to say, the perpetuated form of the providentially preserved Biblical text.

We are also furnished with the principles of consistently Christian New Testament Textual Criticism, namely, that the Christian view of the textual origin and history of the Bible must be Scripturally consistent.

1. The Old Testament was preserved by the Levitical Priesthood and by those scribes and scholars grouped about them.

2. The New Testament causes the ending of the Old Testament priesthood, but invests every believer as a priest under Christ the great High Priest. Thus, the New Testament has been preserved by the consensus of the universal priesthood of believers, that is, by faithful Christians from every walk of life.

3. The traditional text found in the majority of Greek New Testament evidence, as well as general attestation and agreement in other sources, shows that it is the true text, because it represents the God-guided usage of the consensus of the universal priesthood of believers.

4. Printing was a forward step in providential preservation of the New Testament, because the few problems of minority attestations in the Greek were amply supplied for by the Latin-using Christians’ Scripture (particularly the Vulgate), for that the providence of God was also crucially at work among the Western Christians, notwithstanding, that it was these, in the Reformation, who presented the preserved genuine reading as gathered from all various valid sources.

5. The general usage of Protestant Christians of this gathered form, what is called the Received Text, so that the Traditional Greek Text of the vast majority of manuscripts and other evidence was found in printed gathered forms.

6. That the accurate Protestant translations, so widely and vastly used, as based on the Received Text, would indicate that God has placed the stamp of His approval upon the them.

7. The King James Bible is the final form of the Received Text, and the best translation in the world. On this most particularly God has placed His stamp of approval through the long continued usage of English-speaking believers of the highest orders of doctrine. It should therefore be defended today as the supersuccessionary form of the Scripture by and for all Bible-believing Christians.

[George]

Re: " Texts Preserved By God "

Originally Posted by boaz212

I found the link to Edward F. Hill's book while searching for informations my friend is looking for. Maybe this link will be a blessing to someone else too.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/KJV_Defended_Hills.html

One question he had was "How do you know the text which KJB was based on is preserved by God?"
I haven't had time to read Edward Hill's book yet. But can anyone explain to me in simple terms how do we know the texts they were using to translate the KJB were preserved by God? Thanks for your help.

Aloha brother boaz212,

I have a short 7 part study on the King James Bible that I originally made in 1973, and which I have taught in several churches and homes, that will back up everything that brother Tony has testified to here on the Forum.

If you care to check it out you will find it on my web site in the following link:

http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/kingjamesbible.htm

Just a word of caution: I have been a AV1611 (King James Bible) believer for over 40 years and from 1968 - 1988 I probably spent close to 12,000 to 15,000 hours studying this issue. In all of that time I never convinced a single Christian about the question of "Which Bible" with academic arguments about the history of "the Texts of the New & Old Testaments"; the history of "the transmission of the Text of the Bible"; "the manuscript Evidence"; or my "knowledge of church history".

I have found that the two most effective things that have "convinced" those Christians who are genuinely searching for God's Holy words have been:

#1. "The Internal Evidence" - That is, what does God have to say about His word, as recorded in the King James Bible.

#2. "A Verse by Verse Comparison" - of modern versions with the King James Bible in many of the most obvious places where they (the modern versions) differ (sometimes radically) from the King James Bible.

If a Christian is truly looking for "the Scripture of truth", the Holy Spirit will use these two areas and convince them of the truth, regardless of how much time they may spend, or how much knowledge they may have about those other areas.

And if the "internal Evidence" and the "Verse Comparison's" don't "convince" them of the truth - all of the "intellectual" and "academic" attempts to convince them with the all of those other things will not convince them - no matter how long you have studied the issue out; and no matter how hard you may try to persuade them with the knowledge you may attain.

For approximately 20 years (from 1968-1988), I spent far too much time studying ABOUT the Bible and not enough time studying the Bible itself. In your search for the truth about the "Which Bible" issue, try to maintain a "BALANCE" between the two pursuits.

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by George

I have found that the two most effective things that have "convinced" those Christians who are genuinely searching for God's Holy words have been:

#1. "The Internal Evidence" - That is, what does God have to say about His word, as recorded in the King James Bible.

#2. "A Verse by Verse Comparison" - of modern versions with the King James Bible in many of the most obvious places where they (the modern versions) differ (sometimes radically) from the King James Bible.

If a Christian is truly looking for "the Scripture of truth", the Holy Spirit will use these two areas and convince them of the truth, regardless of how much time they may spend, or how much knowledge they may have about those other areas.

And if the "internal Evidence" and the "Verse Comparison's" don't "convince" them of the truth - all of the "intellectual" and "academic" attempts to convince them with the all of those other things will not convince them - no matter how long you have studied the issue out; and no matter how hard you may try to persuade them with the knowledge you may attain.

I agree with Brother George.

One can study manuscript history and yet may end up believing the KJV halfheartedly. I used to think that the facts of Bible history would be enough to convince any skeptic; but by personal experience in dealing with people,the "two areas" (internal evidence and Bible comparison) would have to be the meat, and manuscript evidence the dessert.