[Paladin54]

Your thoughts?

[atlas]

Paladin54,

Can you ask a better question brother? That question is just very open.


Atlas

[Paladin54]

lol Sorry, I had to post and get off quickly.

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

[Diligent]

Originally Posted by Paladin54

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation?

No.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination,

You have to accept predestination, as Paul explicitly says it. What you do not have to accept is a theological system that redefines what is predestined. See this post where I explain my understanding of predestination.

[Paladin54]

Of course Brandon, I forget that predestination was "redefined". It just feels like the more spiritually developed people at my school and church take this theology, so I was gettinga little intimidated....foolish me.

This thread is sufficient for me-had I known it was discussed on another forum...

Thanks again, Brother Brandon.

Paladin's open post:

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

This is a typical misunderstanding of Calvinism. God is not forcing anything on anyone, or refusing salvation to anyone. He clearly says He wills that all be saved and He gave us the command to take the gospel into all the world so that all may hear it and believe or not believe. Everyone will be responsible for their sins and for their response to the gospel. What the scriptures about God's sovereign election and power do is give us a glimpse behind the scenes, seeing things from God's perspective, but from our perspective things remain the same -- we are given the choice and we make it and it's our responsibility. The concept of predestination really only becomes a help to us when we need to be sure our faith is resting on something solid and not on our own shaky wills.

I know that as long as I was in Arminian churches where they are always explaining hard times in terms of the devil's doing it, I would feel uneasy, as if the devil had way too much power. It was only when I had a grip on the Calvinist perspective that I was reassured that the devil is on God's leash, and that God is in charge of EVERYTHING that happens, absolutely everything. That gave me the assurance that NOTHING can happen without God's willing it. NOTHING. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He doesn't make His decisions in present time but in eternity, so of COURSE we are predestined to salvation.

Originally Posted by Paladin54

lol Sorry, I had to post and get off quickly.

Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation? While it is impossible for God to allow any unsaved man condemned by the Law, would he refuse a man the chance to get salvation? I struggle with this thought. I do not accept predestination, but I want to hear your thoughts on the (much more specific) of: Can a loving God force someone to never gain salvation?

If I may state my views concerning your question "Can a loving God predestinate people regarding their salvation?".

I will answer in the affirmative, Yes!

Let me give you this one verse:
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

In order to understand that verse, we have to look at the state and spiritual condition of mankind.

State:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Condition:
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Therefore, if "all" are under sin, then God has to save "all". For we were all subjected to vanity, not willingly.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


Consistent with the bible as a whole, God created mankind subject to vanity, but at the same time provided a means by which the subjected would find hope.

God took care of the salvation problem, but our behavioral problem is ours to manage by blessings and or consequences.

Blessing if we do right, and consequences for sins committed.


Now, how many people can we save from the suffering of spiritual blindness, to that of helping to open the eyes to see Gods spiritual blessings, riches and life?

With the burden of trying to save the world from eternal damnation be lifted up from our shoulders, can we now concentrate on loving our neighbor, regardless of their beliefs?

Calvinism, Armainianism , they were instrumental in furthering the evolution of spiritual growth, meaning that Christianity was once a child, but since, hath grown and growing still to adult hood.

A child has to go through trials and tribulations, having to experience it all in order to learn spiritual truth.

The body of Christ has come along ways, but not yet to full maturity in general, but for individual growth, well, that is up to each individual.

We are responsible to our selves to learn at our own pace, always seeking truth so that we may conform to that of the stature of Christ.

My views and opinions only, not dogmatic theology, but information that may help some who like myself were stuck on key verses.

Mine was this one:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
God revealed to me the answer I sought for, and to my surprise and with gladness, it was not what the normal understanding of it is, but quite different that has to do with my post.

Peace>>>AJ

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

[JerryW]

Originally Posted by jerry

What?? Do you believe in Universalism? God provided salvation for all mankind - but each individual must choose to receive Jesus or reject Him. All of mankind is condemned, and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved - but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ.

Jerry,
You say "and all of mankind CAN/MAY be saved , but not all are, due to their personal choice to receive or reject the Gospel of Christ". But yet a third of the world has not even heard the Gospel Of Christ. Paul says on Rom 1:16 the gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. Again in Rom 10:14 he says "how can they believe in the one they have not heard." You refer to "their personal choice either to receive or reject." But, in John I:13 to those that believe have become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of HUMAN DECISION or a husbands will but born of God. Why do many people that hear the gospel not believe? God answers that question in John 10:26 when he says "but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep". These are some hard truths that might not be easy to swallow but they are right from God's own word. They are up to us to either believe or reject.

Originally Posted by JerryW

But yet a third of the world has not even heard the Gospel Of Christ.

Romans 1-3 teaches that there is enough evidence in creation and in our conscience to prove there is a God - and when man follows the light he has and searches for God, God has obligated Himself to reveal the truth to them. That is why there are stories of African tribes who turned from their idols and then God sends a missionary thousands of miles into uncharted territory to bring them the Gospel. ALL THE WORLD knew the truth at one point in time, but as Romans 1 indicates, their foolish hearts were darkened when they turned to idolatry. At the same time, Romans 10 and Psalm 19 indicates that the truth has gone into all the world. Man is without excuse - and God is faithful to reveal Himself to those who sincerely seek Him.

Why do many people that hear the gospel not believe? God answers that question in John 10:26 when he says "but you do not believe because you are not of my sheep". These are some hard truths that might not be easy to swallow but they are right from God's own word. They are up to us to either believe or reject.

Jesus is speaking to His disciples here - those who already were saved, and indicating the sign of their salvation is obedience. He is not speaking to the lost and calling them His sheep. The Bible nowhere teaches that God saves someone THEN they can respond to the Gospel. The opposite is true: God convicts (NOT REGENERATES) and enlightens the lost, they respond to the Gospel THEN are saved.