[Buythetruth]

A key ingredient to me in the Bible Versions Equation is the Old Testament Hebrew Masoritic Text. It seems the controversy can be focused on the edition used in the New King James Version. Bible scholars claim the New King James Version uses the Hebrew Masoritic Text, without explaining which edition they use, the Ben Chayyim or the Ben Asher editions. Dr. Waite says the New King James Version uses the Ben Asher. So says Gail Riplinger, I believe. I think a good explanation is needed at this time explaning the differences between the former Ben Chayyim and the Ben Asher edition. Why the change and what is wrong with the change. I realize The Ben Asher uses the Leningrad Manuscript (B19a or "L.") Does anyone know a difinitive answer? Of the hundreds of books I have, I have no extensive or conclusive answer. I believe the truth here is not being examined properly or maybe explained enough, at least to satisfy the inquisitive mind. There really should be a concise conclusion to aviod a gaping hole. Can anyone assist in this endevour?

[Steven Avery]

Hi Buythetruth,

The problems in the modern versions in the Old Testament are generally of two types.

1) inferior translation

2) use of Greek, Aramaic, Chaldee, and other sources to emend or 'correct' or somehow change the Masoretic Text or its historically accepted understanding

While the Ben Hayim is superior to the Ben Asher, they are both Masoretic texts, a realm with a fairly well standardized text. So I will share that the degree of difference is far less than some seem to imply. (I've seen counts of nine significant phrase differences, however the modus operandi of variant counts has no standard.) This is one of my main concerns with King James Bible modern book scholarship, the possible implication that there are huge differences in these texts, deliberate or accidental.

The Ben Hayim is far superior in consistency on Tetragram vowel pointing than, e.g. the Leningrad text. However, while significant, that is relevant mainly for the 'Jehovah' vs. pretender name discussions.

The translation problems in the modern versions are huge, I like to give Jeremiah 8:8 as a good example (where the translation error is taken up by skeptics and islamists and lds and all sorts of folks hostile to the pure and perfect Bible). In many cases you will find that the better Jewish translations and the King James Bible are in agreement against the modern versions, including Jeremiah 8:8. The King James Bible translators were excellent in Hebrew and Aramaic translation, and were well acquainted with the works of the Hebraicists like Kimchi and Rashi. Today's translators seemed to be skilled more at looking at a lexicon than reading, speaking, living, breathing and understanding the Biblical languages. Rarely do I find a reference to even the mikra'ot gadalot from the modern translation scholars, which is still today the foundational Hebraic scholarship source.

Returning to the current situation.

While Will Kinney has excellently compiled articles on many translation blunders in the modern versions. John Hinton has done fine scholarly work showing the modern version stupidity leaving the Masoretic text for cognate language conjectures.

By making an artificially inflated case against the Ben Asher text (examples not given, as you seem to have noted) the true modern version OT blunders and errors, as documented e.g. by Will Kinney, are not given their proper due in most King James Bible literature. Also scholarly aptitude and savvy may be questioned if an author leaves you vague and uncertain on this question.

Anyway, that is my short answer for now .

Some of the very best quality material is on the net. This is similar to the New Testament situation where Brandon's Magic Marker page is probably the best single presentation of alexandrian-based modern version tampering.

Shalom,
Steven

[Buythetruth]

Thank you for your take on this subject. I will have to ponder some of what you said although it is very good. Really all I have found so far is what Gail Riplinger says about Kittel's influence on the Ben Asher itself. Off the top of my head I believe I remember her refering to thousands of footnotes by Killel in "his Bible." The Ben Asher edition took the place of the Ben Chayyim in 1937 according to her research. This is significant, as it was during the time of German Rationalism and the 'conditioning' of the German people to accept the atrocities of the Government at that time of anti-Semitism. We know what followed. Refrence in her studies is made to the "corruptness" of the Ben Asher itself (along with "L",) so I have difficulty in reconciling these things together - for lack of details. What is corrupt; why was there a change from a very good edition with a lond and successful history, to an edition some say is faulty?

Dr. Waite states the change also from one edition to another and also mentions corruptness, but no real detailed answers of substance of any length. I have talked with him on the phone and I appreciated his answers, but found them unsatisfying to me to some degree. Maybe I'm looking for too much - and it may not be available.

I have not found anything from any other KJB believer on this subject, but hopefully somthing will be forthcoming. There are many very qualified participants on this forum who contribute their vast knowledge very skillfully in so many areas - maybe someone has additional information.

I know you answered some of this but I guess I'm still unsettled and with lagging questions. I really appreciate your short answer, and again I will ponder it carefully. Your input is greatly appreciated.

God bless.

[Buythetruth]

Thanks Steven,
I believe I understand all that you have explained to me. I will look more diligently on the net and check back here often for more info.

Lord bless,
Buythetruth

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

Originally Posted by Buythetruth

Thanks Steven, I believe I understand all that you have explained to me. I will look more diligently on the net and check back here often for more info. Lord bless, Buythetruth

Welcome.

Now I am not trying to give the impression that there are a lot of good answers to your question on the net. It is sort of a void-land. However what is on the net is the exposing of the blunders, errors, wrong textual choices, tampering and mistranslations in the modern versions, as explained especially by Will Kinney "one verse at a time" . (Sometimes 2,3,4, or 5 at a time). And John Hinton, with his special language expertise.

A while back I did have one thread about the Joshua 21:36-37 section, where some Hebrew texts improperly lack the two verses. It is an interesting study, the Ben Asher is flat-out wrong, while the Ben Hayim I saw has an excellent margin note that was likely taken to heart by the King James Bible translators. As the Ben Hayim actual text is deficient. The critic didn't know about the margin note so he was claiming that the King James Bible translators were using this or that instead. And a European scholar sent me the pic.

You have actually touched on a topic that can make me a smidgen hot towards some pro-King James Bible book writers. The first question that should come to mind if you claim that doctrine or rebellion affected scripture is ... (where). With Westcott and Hort and the modern textcrit gang you can demonstrate (where) very easily all over the NT. Although I usually prefer to emphasize textual corruption rather than the textcrit's (spiritual) corruption.

Even if Gerhard Kittel was a comparable spiritual disaster, and the German school apostasy led to embracing the Ben Asher for the BHS text instead of staying with the superior Ben Hayim text (which I believe was used in Kittel's first two editions) any textual shenanigans is simply not on the level implied by some writers, in fact it is small. The Masoretic Text is too accepted in some circles to be liable to gross and crass tampering.

There are scholars who would like to decimate the Tanach (OT) text in a similar fashion as the textual apostasy of Westcott & Hort. Some years back Emanuel Tov talked (in BAR) about fashioning a new OT text rounding up the usual suspects (these could include Greek MSS, DSS variants, Targumim, Latin and Aramaic texts, and probably the infamous Ugaritic and Akkadian and Arabian cognates, along with anything else in the kitchen sink). However the religious Jews would give that no quarter, and Bible-believing Christians know the Reformation & Hebrew-Aramaic Masoretic --> King James Bible is the true Bible. Even some non-KJB folks know the first part of the equation. So that idea has not gotten far, I even had a little chat about it with Professor Lawrence Schiffman when he was speaking here. Schiffman, as an Orthodox Jew, who essentially accepts the Masoretic Text Bible as the D'var Elohim, the word of God (albeit not as fully as we do, ie. leaving a bit of scribal fudge possibly in the pan on the 'hard cases') would not go along with such an idea. And Professor Schiffman indicated that the idea had not gotten anywhere; and he felt that Tov was a bit more sensible today.

Shalom,
Steven

[Buythetruth]

Thanks again Steven,
You are suggesting evidence confirming my questioning interest. I did read somewhere that the Vatican endorses the Ben Asher, not that that is of any import. My two questions stand as valid since some make an issue of the text. We focus on the New Testament and rightly so, with Westcott and Hort's shenanigens and the proof text comparrisons. But I think questions of the O.T. should be answered too as best we possibility can. When the Messoritic Text is mentioned, which edition is refered to? Do we really need to know. I want to cover all the bases needed.

Thanks for your continued input and expert answers.

God bless,
Buythetruth