[boaz212]

I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him. And no man can come and believe on Christ if the Father chooses not to save him by drawing him to His Son.
I don't believe Calvin's understanding of predestination because the scriptures do teach the contrary. So my questions are: on what basis does the Father "draw" and "give" sinners to Christ so they will get saved? And what do sinners need to do to either not get "drawn" or get "drawn" by the Father unto salvation?

So far, I think this verse below may explain part of the questions. Those who will "hear" and "learn" from the Father by their own choice will be "drawn" and those refuse will not be. Does it make sense so far? Please feel free to share your insights and understanding with me. Thanks!!

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[Winman]

Show them John 12:32

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now, read this carefully. Jesus said he will draw all men to himself. So every man is drawn to Christ. But that does not mean everyone will be saved, and John 6:44 does not say that every person who is drawn will be saved either.
It says that everyone who is saved will be drawn by Jesus to himself. Big difference.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

You love Jesus because he first loved you and revealed his love for you by dying on the cross for you, bearing your sins upon himself, and rising from the dead. He introduced himself to you, you did not go looking for him.

You know, when I was 11 years old, a neighbor who had been a missionary asked if she could take myself and brother to church. My Dad let us go. That day the Pastor preached about the torments of hell, and I tell you, it scared me to death. And he told how Jesus died for me in my place, so that I would not have to suffer for my sins. Then the Pastor invited anyone down who wanted to receive Jesus as their Savior. Man, I jumped out of my seat and almost ran down. I wanted to be saved NOW!

I was just a boy, I didn't think that much on those kind of things. But God sent someone to bring me to church and hear his Word. His Word created faith in my heart and I got saved that day by asking Jesus to forgive all my sins and to come into my heart. But Jesus came after me, I did not go after him. And when I heard God's Word, it drew me to Jesus.

[chette777]

Who was John written too? Is it before the Cross or After the cross? Why did Jesus Say what he said in light of the OT?

right division and context is needed in such verses. it in no wise teaches Calvinism

[peopleoftheway]

There is little profit in engaging a Calvinist in study or debate, to accept all 5 points of Calvinism you have to be rooted in that horrible doctrine, It appalls me when I look at how scripture has been wrested by John Calvin and accepted by many many people as Doctrine, even when refuted CLEARLY with scripture is twisted furthermore to fit.

2 Peter 3:14-16 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I believe in the "Whosoevers's" of scripture, point your finds a few chapters before and on in John, although im sure Calvinists have a way of twisting the whosoever's also.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Thats the "whosoever's" from John, there are many many more in scripture that testify WHOSOEVER

And FINALLY in Scripture

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[boaz212]

Thanks for responding to my question. The "whosoever" verses did not make a dent in their thinking. I also used John 13:32. They are stuck on this chapter on the Father drawing the people to Christ for salvation as their basis for predestination.
Now I am trying to look into the scripture to see why these people were not drawn.
Chette, I am following up on your "hint". Feel free to elaborate if you have the chance too.

[Winman]

Thanks for responding to my question. The "whosoever" verses did not make a dent in their thinking. I also used John 13:32. They are stuck on this chapter on the Father drawing the people to Christ for salvation as their basis for predestination.
Now I am trying to look into the scripture to see why these people were not drawn.
Chette, I am following up on your "hint". Feel free to elaborate if you have the chance too.

You did not pay attention to my post. God's Word says every man is drawn to Christ. It does not say that every person who is drawn will be saved, it says that every person who gets saved was drawn to Christ.

You see, that is important. It is Jesus who saves us 100%. We cannot claim we have a good heart and that we chose Jesus. No, we are all ungodly, all wicked sinners. It is only when God's Word creates faith in the hearts of those who hear and believe God's Word that a person gets saved. If Jesus did not come to you first, you would have never gone to him.

And not to criticize Chette, because we are told to diligently study and rightly divide the Word, but you know, sometimes you just need to read the Bible and listen to what it says, and not worry all about these dispensations and all that stuff. Man, there are people that can explain all this theological stuff to you forward and backwards who do not believe God's Word one bit, and are not saved. God did not give us the Word to be intellectuals. God's Word is for every person, whether small or great, intellectual or simple. You do not need to attend a seminary to hear God's Word, be saved and serve the Lord.

Some people are so busy studying the Bible like it is a science, that they do not bother to actually listen to what God is saying, often in very simple and straightforward language. This intellectual stuff is nothing but PRIDE plain and simple. I am not saying every one who diligently studies the Bible is on an ego trip, but sadly, many are.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You know what children have that adults do not have? Humility and simple child-like faith. They do not care if they are more intellectual than other children or adults. And they do not question God's Word, they hear it and believe. I forgot the exact numbers, but many years ago I read a study that showed that most Christians accepted Christ as a child, something like 90% or more. I myself was only 11 years old when I accepted Jesus. I am so glad that God was merciful and came after me when I was young. I have wondered that if I had not got saved then, would my heart have hardened against the Gospel as I got older?

I'll never know, but I thank the Lord for coming to me as a child. I couldn't care less about all this theological science, I just knew I was a sinner and that Jesus loved me and died for me, and that he would forgive me and save me from my sins if I would simply pray and ask him to. That was the greatest day of my life, nothing in my adulthood could possibly surpass it.

[Winman]

Here are some verses to show your friends.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

OK, how do you get faith to receive Jesus as your Saviour? You must hear the Word of God. This does not mean to simply hear the audible sound, it means to geniunely listen and take God's Word to heart, to trust and believe his Word.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You know, when my son was about 2 years old, he kept trying to reach up and touch a lightbulb on a lamp. I said, "Don't touch that, its very hot!" He dropped his hand but slyly smiled at me and reached up again. Again, I told him not to touch the light, because it was very hot and would burn him. He dropped his hand again, then again gave me a sly little smile and reached up to touch the light. This time I said, "OK, go ahead and touch it.". He did touch the light with his finger and immediately screamed in pain, and ran crying to his mother. She of course came in and wanted to know what happened, and I explained that he kept trying to touch the light, and that I had repeatedly warned him it was hot and would burn him, but that he wouldn't listen, so I allowed him to touch the light.

So you see, my son heard me. You should have seen his little devious smile, it is amazing how intelligent a small child can be. He knew quite well he was defying me, and even delighted in it. He heard my words, but he did not believe he would come to any harm. Well, he learned the hard way that Dad was telling the truth, and never again attempted to touch a light bulb that was on.

And you see that in Rom 10:21. God's had been diligently (all day long)stretching out his arms and calling Israel to himself. He was drawing every single one of them. But they refused to listen and come to him and so were not saved.

So, you can be drawn but not saved.

[George]

Aloha brother Winman,

This Post is in regards to some of the comments you made on 05-01-2009 > AV1611 Bible Forums > Bible Studies > Question on John 6 > Post #6

“And not to criticize Chette, because we are told to diligently study and rightly divide the Word, but you know, sometimes you just need to read the Bible and listen to what it says, and not worry all about these dispensations and all that stuff. Man, there are people that can explain all this theological stuff to you forward and backwards who do not believe God's Word one bit, and are not saved. God did not give us the Word to be intellectuals. God's Word is for every person, whether small or great, intellectual or simple. You do not need to attend a seminary to hear God's Word, be saved and serve the Lord.”

”Some people are so busy studying the Bible like it is a science, that they do not bother to actually listen to what God is saying, often in very simple and straightforward language. This intellectual stuff is nothing but PRIDE plain and simple. I am not saying every one who diligently studies the Bible is on an ego trip, but sadly, many are. ”

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

“You know what children have that adults do not have? Humility and simple child-like faith. They do not care if they are more intellectual than other children or adults. And they do not question God's Word, they hear it and believe. I forgot the exact numbers, but many years ago I read a study that showed that most Christians accepted Christ as a child, something like 90% or more. I myself was only 11 years old when I accepted Jesus. I am so glad that God was merciful and came after me when I was young. I have wondered that if I had not got saved then, would my heart have hardened against the Gospel as I got older?”

”I'll never know, but I thank the Lord for coming to me as a child. I couldn't care less about all this theological science, I just knew I was a sinner and that Jesus loved me and died for me, and that he would forgive me and save me from my sins if I would simply pray and ask him to. That was the greatest day of my life, nothing in my adulthood could possibly surpass it.”

I think we have to clarify WHERE we Christians are to be “as” children, and WHERE we are NOT to be “as” children. The following comments are not meant to castigate, demean, or embarrass you – I am just putting them out for you to think about.

When it comes to God’s people being “as” or “like” children the following verses of Scripture are our “guide” as to WHERE this applies:

We are to be as or like children in “Attitude”, “Qualities” of Character, and “Faith”

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. {ATTITUDE}
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. {ATTITUDE}
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. {QUALITIES}
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Mark 9:33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. {ATTITUDE}

Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. {QUALITIES}
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. {FAITH}
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children. {ATTITUDE}

Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. {ATTITUDE}

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. {QUALITIES}
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. {ATTITUDE}


We are to be as or like MEN (not children) in “Learning” & “Judgment”

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. {LEARNING}
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; {JUDGMENT}
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. {JUDGMENT}

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. {LEARNING}
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. {LEARNING}
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. {JUDGMENT}

I believe that there are at least three major "failings" that almost all so-called Bible believing churches (all others are not in view) in America today are guilty of: No. 1. = The lack of true WORSHIP of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [John 4:23-24]; No. 2 = A lack of genuine LOVE for God – [2 Thessalonians 3:5; Jude 1:21}; and N0. 3. = The failure to TEACH – “HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE” [2 Timothy 2:15].

The first two “failures” eventually leads to making the cross of Christ of “none effect” [1 Corinthians 1:17]. And the third “failure” eventually leads to making the word of God of “none effect” [Mark 7:13]

As to the first two “failures”, I recommend that you check out brother Forrest Wychopen’s Posts on this Forum and his Web Site: http://www.christdirected.com/ <> I know of no other person on this Forum that is better suited to comment on these matters than brother Forrest – he has been a real blessing to me and has helped me to reexamine my attitude towards my SAVIOUR, the LORD Jesus Christ, and reevaluate my relationship with Him.

As to the third “failure”, I have plenty to say about that! Most of the genuine Bible believing churches today in America (all others are not in view) are focusing on the “cult of personality”; that is, they focus on a man - the “PASTOR”, and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ. Or they emphasize the “CHURCH” (the “WORK”) and NOT the Holy word of God.

In doing so, these churches are producing “passive” Christians who “tithe”; give offerings; and attend most (if not all) church services and functions; but who (sadly) DO NOT STUDY the Holy Scriptures on their own; and who, are NOT encouraged to study God’s word; and who are NOT instructed on HOW to study the Holy Bible; and who (personally) know very little Bible other than what little they “hear” from the “pulpit”. They depend on a man (the “PASTOR”) for their knowledge, discernment, and understanding of God’s Holy words, and in doing so they become “stunted” in their own growth as a child of God – that is they remain “babes” in Christ! [Hebrews 5:12-14]

The “failure” to FEED & TEACH on the part of the PASTORS has led to the horde of “Christian” commentators today, and is the main reason why we see so many Christian people (many on this Forum) continually “recommending” this man (commentator), or that man (commentator), or their books, or audio and video tapes & CD’s.

In Paul’s day a couple of “ordinary” Christians (Priscilla & Aquila) knew enough about the Holy Scriptures that they “straightened out” a great preacher (Apollos) on his doctrine. Today, most Christians don’t know enough about doctrine to “straighten out” their Catholic neighbors! And the few that might know something about doctrine are not going to get a “hearing” from a know-it-all “Doctor” who matriculated at his favorite “Bible” school.

The Lord Jesus Christ said: “. . . . It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” [Matthew 4:4] God’s word is likened unto food (food sustains us). The Scriptures liken God’s Holy words to: Honey [Psalms 119:103]; Bread [Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4]; Apples [Proverbs 7:2]; Milk [1 Peter 2:2; Hebrews 5:13] and Meat [Hebrews 5:12-14]. God’s word is also likened unto water; that is - it “washes” or “cleanses” us. [Ephesians 5:26]

If God’s word is all sufficient to sustain and cleanse us - WHY don’t Christians read it; know it; and rely on it? For the most part, today’s Christians DO NOT STUDY; instead they rely on men (pastors & commentators) to do their studying (and "thinking") for them. They would rather follow a mere man than God!

I hope this Post may have of some help in clarifying WHERE we are to be like children, and WHERE we are to be like men. I shall be posting a very short study on “How to Study the Bible” following this Post - in case you are interested in some of the basic “KEYS” in studying the Bible.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by boaz212

I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him. And no man can come and believe on Christ if the Father chooses not to save him by drawing him to His Son.
I don't believe Calvin's understanding of predestination because the scriptures do teach the contrary. So my questions are: on what basis does the Father "draw" and "give" sinners to Christ so they will get saved? And what do sinners need to do to either not get "drawn" or get "drawn" by the Father unto salvation?

So far, I think this verse below may explain part of the questions. Those who will "hear" and "learn" from the Father by their own choice will be "drawn" and those refuse will not be. Does it make sense so far? Please feel free to share your insights and understanding with me. Thanks!!

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

There was always a Jewish remnant that was faithful to God. There was that faithful few (Zacharias, Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, John the Baptist, the disciples…etc) who were looking for the coming Messiah and these were the ones that the Father gave to Jesus. Someone once asked what happened to a Jew who died before the cross since the new birth and sealing of the Holy Spirit was not yet occurring. Jesus made it plain what would happen; “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day”, the all referring to those faithful Jews waiting for the Messiah and then believing Jesus was he.

THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5)

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2:25)

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:36-37)

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (John 1:19-23)

One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. (John 1:40-41)

Originally Posted by boaz212

I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6...

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him...

Boaz, please be advised...
tulip or no tulip, once you get past the flower it's still Calvinism—stinking like a dead catfish in the sunlight. The problem with Calvinism is they always end up forcing God to predestinate certain people to hell. However we know that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9) Don't ever forget that.

Predestination in the KJV is ALWAYS associated with and based on FOREKNOWLEDGE, and God's foreknowledge existed before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13) God's foreknowledge allowed Him to look down through time and KNOW who would accept the Saviour, and God then elected them, called them and predestinated them to glorification (Rom. 8:29-30). But it all STARTED with free will and foreknowledge. Nothing like a King James Bible to clear up doctrinal issues.

Beware the "tulip" doctrine of Calvinism, it is a leaven that can lead to much confusion. Stay in that KJV, and don't argue with these people. More here from Jack Hyles:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm