[CKG]

I have been corresponding with a young man who has started believing the serpent seed / Kenite teachings. This teaching comes in a variety of forms but basically they say Cain was a result of a sexual union of Satan and Eve and the Kenites are their offspring, somehow survived the flood and the pharisees were Kenites. Some believe all of the Jews are Kenites. This is based primarily on verses such as 1 John 3:12, John 8:44, and Matthew 13:38. Have any of you dealt with folks who follow this teaching? I was presented with the below and would like to respond with as understandable a reply as I can.

Yeah I always thought the same way until I actually took the time to read scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15 says to rightly divide the word of truth. The point I am making below through scripture is that after Cain slew Abel he says in vs. 14 below that "
that every one that findeth me shall slay me." All the days of Adam were 930 yrs as stated below in Genesis 5:5. Genesis 5:3 says:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:" So it was not for 130 yrs later did Adam have Seth;

Genesis 5:4 "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:"

So after he had Seth 130 yrs later after Cain and Abel then he begat sons and daughters. So when given he had Seth at 130 yrs old and then lived for 800 yrs and beget sons and daughters. Which 130 +800 = 930 yrs which verse 5 clearly says all the days of Adam were 930 yrs.

So Genesis 4:14 Cain had to be referring to the other races of people living on earth who would kill him; cuz no one else had been born yet from Adam's lineage...

SO THEREFORE CAIN HAD TO MARRY FROM A DIFFERENT RACE WHICH AS SCRIPTURE INDICATES IN THE LAND OF NOD....

Genesis 4:14 "Behold, Thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from Thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass that every one that findeth me shall slay me."

Genesis 4:25 "And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew."

This is after the death of Abel; for Abel is dead, murdered by his brother Cain. Abel had no children. The second son of Adam is "Seth", and in the Hebrew text it means "appointed", and comes from the word "Sheth" which is translated to "substituted".

Genesis 4:26 "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos; Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord."

[Samuel]

Sounds like he has been watching Arnold Murray (Shepherds Chapel). That's a favorite heresy of his.

[CKG]

Originally Posted by CKG

Genesis 5:4 "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:"

So after he had Seth 130 yrs later after Cain and Abel then he begat sons and daughters. So when given he had Seth at 130 yrs old and then lived for 800 yrs and beget sons and daughters. Which 130 +800 = 930 yrs which verse 5 clearly says all the days of Adam were 930 yrs.
."[/B][/INDENT]

One problem I see is that my young friend says "So when given he had Seth at 130 yrs old and then lived for 800 yrs and beget sons and daughters" when the Bible actually says:

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: (Genesis 5:4)

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

One problem I see is that my young friend says "So when given he had Seth at 130 yrs old and then lived for 800 yrs and beget sons and daughters" when the Bible actually says:

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: (Genesis 5:4)

Craig, I take a stone, a good stake of hardwood, and with a mixture of dried deer dung, pine sap, and hide glue("Indian Epoxy"), I lash these together with wet sinew and wet rawhide, and make very useful and museum quality reproductions of a Plains Indian warclub. What any cult; Catholicism, Camping, Watchtower, etc., does is take preconceived notions and man-made ideas and then they use Scripture as glue and sinew to try and glue together a belief.

Your friend needs to do this: Anywhere in the Old Testament, any verse, any precept, the first thing that needs to be done is make the Lord Jesus Christ the center of that verse or precept. Anything, any incident, that occurs in the OT, ask yourself, what type, figure, similitude, is this to Jesus Christ?

People say what they will about Peter Ruckman, some true, most of it is false, but I was a confused ex-Church Of Christ refugee with no guidance, no idea where to turn, because my canon of Scripture was Mark 16 to Acts 2. I met some people who owned a Christian bookstore and I took to reading Dr. Ruckman, and he made a statement about understanding the OT in that if you put Jesus Christ into every verse,, every prophecy, every incident, then the OT will not be a mystery, nor will it contain any mystery. Jesus Christ is the Name above every name, the center of all we do to the glory of God the Father with the Holy Ghost as our Helper. When we don't worry about "gaps" and races of humans other than the one He has given us record of and view the OT as Jesus Christ being the end of, then we can dismiss false theories.

And Dr. Ruckman was 100 percent right.

1. Cain(Israel) the firstborn of Adam(as Israel was God's firstborn son)slew his
brother Abel(Christ)because Abel offered sacrifice to God by faith and not his own works.
2. God clothed Adam and Eve(us) in the skins of innocent lambs(Christ)to cover our nakedness(our sins)from His sight.

Is that a good primer to begin?

Now to this cult:

1. There are NO races other than the ones God created through Adam and Eve. "Lillith", the "demon wife" of Adam, is a Babylonian myth("Lilu") the Jews picked up while in Captivity in Babylon, just as these people are making a myth of dead stones and dead wood and trying to lash them together with the glue and sinew and leather stripped from the Scriptures so they can use it to bash the Truth over the head.
2. Genesis 5 is,as I tried to explain to another man in another thread in this forumabout Genesis 1:1, an overview with a purpose. We are told with no uncertain doubts that God created humanity that then propagated through Adam and Eve, and told a story that is a similitude of Jesus Christ by focusing on the first two children born, Cain and Abel, we are not told that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters because it is not relevant to the typology we are being taught with Cain's hatred and jealousy of Abel, as Israel hated and was jealous of Jesus Christ. These cultists are throwing up a smokescreen and reading things into the Scripture that is not there. Maybe Tom Hanks and Ron Howard will instruct Dan Brown to read this thread and check out this cult and make yet another silly horror movie, but that is just what this cult teaches, the plot for a one-star horror movie. I write horror and know fiction when I see it.

Cain was a farmer and Abel kept sheep. For who? Who ate the fruits of their labor? Their mother, father, and their sisters and brothers. Adam had a son who murdered the second son and then waited 130 years to have another son and then sons and daughters? Genesis 5 tells a story of humanity's creation, God called Adam and Eve and their descendants "Adam". It's then we settle in to see the beginning of the line of flesh ancestors of Jesus Christ.

Always follow this rule, this is one of the tenets of The Cult Of Tonybonesism: Start with Scripture first and a pre-conceived notion, and Scripture will win over the pre-conceived notion. But if you start with a pre-conceived notion and then add Scripture to try and glue it together, you end up with a cult.

Always stick with Scripture, and always make the Lord Jesus Christ the center of that Scripture and you will never go wrong.

Grace and peace and my prayers you can make some of these people see the truth.

Tony

[CKG]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

Start with Scripture first and a pre-conceived notion, and Scripture will win over the pre-conceived notion. But if you start with a pre-conceived notion and then add Scripture to try and glue it together, you end up with a cult.

Thanks all for the comments. They have been helpful. Tonybones; I think you hit the nail on the head. Talking with this young man reminds me of folks like the Church of Christ (COC) or the Calvinists. Once a person has been indoctrinated with COC teachings, every time they see water or baptism in the Bible they see it through the "water baptism is essential for salvation" filter. Most Calvinists when they see the words elected or chosen in the Bible see it through the "in eternity past God picked out who would be saved and not saved" filter. My young friend is interpreting scripture through the "serpent seed / Kenite" filter. What's hard to understand is how this young man could fall for these teachings. I believe he is saved and he was brought up in a solid KJV believing home.

[Winman]

Yes, great answers by both George and Tony

I agree with Brother George, we have to be very careful making assumptions, and when we do, they have to make sense.

I too believe Adam and Eve had many children who are not mentioned in scripture. Adam lived 930 years, so he must have been extremely healthy to say the least, as I am sure Eve was also. And both being formed by God himself, they most likely were both very handsome and beautiful. And I am sure Adam and Eve loved each other very much. I cannot imagine two healthy, beautiful, and in-love people who could wait years to come together as some suggest.

And Tony, I like what you said:

put Jesus Christ into every verse,, every prophecy, every incident, then the OT will not be a mystery, nor will it contain any mystery.

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Winman

Yes, great answers by both George and Tony

I agree with Brother George, we have to be very careful making assumptions, and when we do, they have to make sense.

I too believe Adam and Eve had many children who are not mentioned in scripture. Adam lived 930 years, so he must have been extremely healthy to say the least, as I am sure Eve was also. And both being formed by God himself, they most likely were both very handsome and beautiful. And I am sure Adam and Eve loved each other very much. I cannot imagine two healthy, beautiful, and in-love people who could wait years to come together as some suggest.

And Tony, I like what you said:

Brother, thank you for your kind words, I just spoke the truth is all. Read Hebrews from this perspective: You are a Jew, you are being preached Christ, you are being told that everything in the OT was about, of, for, with, through, and pointing to Jesus Christ. It gives a new and radical(and sound)perspective on the OT Scriptures. Is there a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? Who cares, what does it have to do with Jesus Christ? Genesis says that there were giants BEFORE the Flood and AFTER the flood. How did that happen? Obvious and simple: Noah's wife or one of his daughter-in-laws carried the genes. Kewl. What does that have to do with Jesus, as I told Nehemiah, what similitude can we see that points to Christ? WHO Melchisidec was is not as important as WHAT he was, a type of the eternal priest that Christ is now, so I don't worry about WHO he was.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by CKG

Thanks all for the comments. They have been helpful. Tonybones; I think you hit the nail on the head. Talking with this young man reminds me of folks like the Church of Christ (COC) or the Calvinists. Once a person has been indoctrinated with COC teachings, every time they see water or baptism in the Bible they see it through the "water baptism is essential for salvation" filter. Most Calvinists when they see the words elected or chosen in the Bible see it through the "in eternity past God picked out who would be saved and not saved" filter. My young friend is interpreting scripture through the "serpent seed / Kenite" filter. What's hard to understand is how this young man could fall for these teachings. I believe he is saved and he was brought up in a solid KJV believing home.

Craig, he could be going through what I call The Mars Hill Phase. He wants to discover some "new thing". We get Calvinism and CoC and UFOs and demon wives of Adam("Lillith"), "Shalom" greetings and "El Shaddai" bumper stickers from the same thing. Anything but Jesus.This "Kenite" cult is not one I've checked out, sounds like a bunch of Neo-Nazi anti-Semites to me. One thing might smack him out of it. Get a garage sale KJV, give it to him with a red magic marker and tell him, take this marker and start at Genesis 1:1 and mark a continuous line through every OT verse till you get to the end of Malichi, I'll tell you why when you get it done. When he gets it done, tell him the truth: This is the blood of Jesus Christ, it runs in a river through the whole OT, every last single livin' lovin' verse in the OT had Jesus Christ at the center. Once he's done that, it might give him a different perspective on the OT. If the Jews had done that 2000 years ago, they would have seen Who He truly Was, El Shaddai in the flesh.

You know, I hate to get on a soapbox, but not 1 person in 1 million knows what "el shaddai" means, unless you are in Tel Aviv. Why don't they just make "God Almighty" bumper stickers?

Grace and peace brother

A Mystified Tommy Bones

[chette777]

Originally Posted by tonybones2112

You know, I hate to get on a soapbox, but not 1 person in 1 million knows what "el shaddai" means, unless you are in Tel Aviv. Why don't they just make "God Almighty" bumper stickers?

You made a great point about the bumper sticker. I learned once that the Egyptians taught thousands of years ago that if you know the name of a god you can manipulate him and his power. Charismatic Prosperity Theology groups are always claiming Jesus name and use it in that way. I even heard Kenneth Copland explain using the name of Jesus as part of his name it and claim it theology.

On a side note, El Shaddai is the name of a Roman Catholic Charismatic group started here in the Philippines and is now world wide.

[George]

“I have been corresponding with a young man who has started believing the serpent seed / Kenite teachings. This teaching comes in a variety of forms but basically they say Cain was a result of a sexual union of Satan and Eve and the Kenites are their offspring, somehow survived the flood and the Pharisees were Kenites. Some believe all of the Jews are Kenites. This is based primarily on verses such as 1 John 3:12, John 8:44, and Matthew 13:38. Have any of you dealt with folks who follow this teaching? I was presented with the below and would like to respond with as understandable a reply as I can.”

Aloha CKG,

There is so much false teaching and heresy out in the world today (even amongst “Christians”), that it is practically impossible to keep track of it all. By your description, it appears to me that “Nehemiah” (banned – The Thread: "Could There Be a Connection?"”) may have been into the same “fairy tale” that you are describing.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

First off - we don’t know HOW LONG AFTER the expulsion from the Garden, that Adam “knew” his wife Eve (One week? One month? One Year? Several years? Who knows?) But the clear testimony of the Bible is: “Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived” - PERIOD! The obvious Scriptural “implication” is that Eve “conceived” as the RESULT of Adam “knowing” her – it doesn’t matter “what” Eve “THOUGHT” [“I have gotten a man from the LORD.”] unless she was crediting God for blessing her with a child. Remember – she was the one that was “DECEIVED” to begin with (NOT Adam)!

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

NOTHING is said about a “sexual union” between Satan & Eve. (It’s ALL PURE SPECULATION!) And to embrace a “doctrine” founded on “speculation” is “MADNESS” on the part of those who believe it. It only re-affirms what the Bible already teaches about our (men’s) hearts:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

The Scriptural narrative tells of the birth of Cain and then Abel. It doesn’t say HOW MUCH TIME PASSED from their birth to WHEN Cain slew Abel. It doesn’t tell you that Cain had a wife or whether Abel had a wife or not. There is a whole lot that God leaves out of the narrative (as He also did concerning all of creation), and any attempt on our part to “fill in the gaps” involves conjecture, supposition, speculation, and “guess work” – with the danger and risk that in “trying to make sense” of the Scriptural “narrative” we may end up ADDING, SUBTRACTING, or CHANGING God’s Holy word to “fit” our limited understanding.

As far as man is concerned - the Scriptural narrative was first just about Adam and his wife Eve (from Genesis 2:7) up until the narrative switches to Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:1-12); and then (AFTER Cain kills Abel) the narrative follows Cain (his wife) and his offspring for a short spell (Genesis 4:9-24).

We have NO IDEA HOW OLD Cain was or HOW OLD Abel was WHEN Cain slew him. But they were old enough to be engaged in Farming and Sheep Herding. The Bible never tells us WHEN Cain married his wife, it just tells us when he “knew her” and she “conceived” (AFTER - “Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.” Genesis 4:16).

It is pure “speculation” to assume that Cain found his wife in the land of Nod; he could have just as well have been already married and took his wife with him. The Bible doesn’t say – one way or the other. But to build a doctrine from these assumptions and speculations is FOOLISHNESS!

The fact that the Scriptural narrative temporarily left off following Adam and Eve while it followed Cain and his offspring, doesn’t “mean” that Adam and Eve were just “twiddling their thumbs” for that whole period of time! Anymore than it meant that they were playing “tidily winks” the whole time from the birth of Cain and Abel up to the time that Cain slew Abel! Does any “sane” person think that Adam WAITED UNTIL he “knew” his wife AGAIN for 130 YEARS?

What world do these people live in? If there is any “assuming” to be done, it would have to be done on the basis of sound and rational “reasoning” {WITHIN the Scriptural framework} – NOT irrational “speculation”. The Scriptures do not say HOW MANY daughters Adam and Eve had (The Bible narrative records and follows some of the male offspring), and to ASSUME that they didn’t have “relations” or any daughters for 130 years is sheer madness! It makes you wonder whether the people who dream up these heresies have ever been married and or have ever lived with a wife whom they have loved for several years.

HOW OLD was Adam WHEN Cain killed Abel? The Bible doesn’t say! But it does say:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:

If you “average” the age of the men (given above - minus Adam) as to WHEN they “begat” their first son it comes out to over 115 years of age! That is, WHEN they had their first son – NOT WHEN they got married. The youngest age (Mahalaleel & Enoch) at begetting a son was 65 years old; and the oldest age (Methuselah) at begetting a son was 187 years old.

IF Cain was already married when he killed Abel he would have been some where’s between 65 and 187 years old. And IF he didn’t have a wife until he moved to Nod, the fact remains that SOON AFTER he killed Abel he moved to the land of Nod and “knew” his wife and she bare him a son. The question is HOW OLD was Cain at that time? And a reasonable answer would be some where’s between 65 and 187, and if you took the “average” he would have been around 115 years old (or thereabouts).

Is somebody going to “CLAIM” that AFTER Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she bore him two sons from their joining together – that he (Adam) “WAITED” to “know” her AGAIN anywhere’s from 65 to 130 years BEFORE he “knew” her AGAIN? Can they be serious? Would anybody (in their “right mind”) take such nonsense seriously, unless they have such a perverse heart that they adamantly refuse to believe the truth, and so God has sent them a “strong delusion”.

We don’t know HOW OLD Adam was when he begat Cain and Abel, the Scriptures don’t tell us, but we do know that he was 130 years old when he begat Seth [Genesis 5:3]. IF Adam was 65 years old (the youngest recorded Scriptural age for “begetting” before the Flood) then (according to these heretics) Adam would have WAITED 65 years BEFORE he “knew” his wife Eve AGAIN! It’s impossible! She wasn’t a NUN, and he wasn’t a “celibate” Roman Catholic Priest! They were MAN & WIFE! She was - “bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh”; and if anyone “THINKS” that once Adam “knew” his wife Eve that he WAITED 65 or MORE YEARS BEFORE he “knew” her AGAIN – they either DON’T KNOW human nature, or are unwilling to admit to the natural “affection” that exists between a loving man & wife.

To deny that Adam and Eve had any daughters AFTER begetting Cain and Abel is ludicrous! The fact that the Scriptures don’t say that they did, does not preclude the fact that they most certainly did. There is no other reasonable (or Scriptural) explanation for WHERE Cain got his wife. The fact that the Scriptures state that Adam & Eve had “sons and daughters” AFTER he begat Seth, does not preclude the possibility that they “begat” daughters AFTER begetting Cain and Abel, and BEFORE begetting Seth. They certainly didn’t just sit around and “look” at each other for all those years between the births of Cain and Abel and the birth of Seth! Get real!

Although the Scriptures are SILENT on some of these matters, to speculate about two different Adams; or a different Eve; or a different “race” of “men” (aliens perhaps); or additional creations of men and women (by God) in addition to the Scriptural record - is preposterous, irrational, arbitrary, and foolish. And above all – such speculation ends up ADDING to the Holy words of God, which we are warned against [Deuteronomy 4:2; Proverbs 30:5; Revelation 22:18-19].

I have said it before; I try real hard to avoid speculation when it comes to the Scriptures. IF the Scriptures are silent on a matter, or if they don’t give a lot of information on an issue, we can’t just jump off “into the wild blue yonder” with wild speculations, just because we can’t make “sense” of a Scriptural issue; the Scriptural mandate dictates that we look for “reasonable” answers - WITHIN the confines of Scripture, NOT in “flights of fancy” or “fairy tales”!

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.