[chette777]

I have started this thread to post Sound Bible Believing Doctrines for Christians living today.

Feel free to add good sound Bible believing doctrines in this thread so all who come and visit this sight may learn of the sound doctrines as well as some of the controversial ones.

Blessings to all who read and learn

[chette777]

Romans 13:1-10 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Titus3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
this verse is a direct ink to
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Above are the teachings of Paul and Peter to the church and people in the past, now and in the Great Tribulation. Their clear understanding that men even those who profess Christ would be prone to rebellion and lawlessness were inspired by God to write unto the believers this most important of Christian living doctrines. Both these Apostles, one the Gentile’s and other to the Jew’s, both support and teach that believers in Christ were to be submitted and subjected to higher governing authority while living in this earth. The three sets of Scriptures above are the base and supporting verse for Believers to submit to the Governing Authority.

Even our Lord Jesus showed his obedience to higher powers in
Mt 17:25-27 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
If anyone had reason not to submit to the Higher Powers or principalities, or to obey every ordinance of man if was our Lord and he gives a good case in the verse above as to why. but he decides not to offend them. Christ reason agrees with that of Paul and Peter as not to offend or be found a transgressor of the law in the governing authorities eyes.

Recently there have come to this Forum men who advocate that because the US is not under a Monarchy that these scriptures no longer apply to believers whose governments are democracies or federal or socialistic. This is rather troublesome to the body and is well outside the Biblical mandate of NT Scriptures.

Quoting from Kent Hovind legal update #20
“I will always contend that Americans no not live under kings or royalty, or any such system. Our leaders are elected and paid SERVANTS of the people, no more no less. In essence they are employees of the citizens. I believe we can apply Romans 13 just fine, right up to the point where the government starts taking our inalienable rights and forgetting that it too is subject to the God who gave them to us.”

Is this true? Are we to only apply Romans 13 "up to a Certain point"? God's word leaves no room for this type of misleading statement. it if full obedience or you face the results of your disobedience i.e jail; time, fines, public news and blaspheming the Lord by your actions before an unbelieving world.

Qutoeing from Calvinistic (political) Eleection#2
God has already determined who is going to win all of the elections (political). I know God "removeth kings, and setteth up kings:"(Daniel 2:21), but “I'm not sure this applies to voting and elections. Its one thing to say God in His foreknowledge knows who will be elected, but its another thing to say He has already determined it”.

While Daniel may not apply directly it is supportive of the fact we are to submit to the higher powers that be which are ordained of God according to Romans 13.

Quoting from Calvinistic (political) Election #3
“Personally, I think it's high time for Christians to stop thinking about our elected politicians as "kings." God delivered us from all that with the Mayflower Compact and the U.S. Constitution. Jesus is our King. There is no royalty in Washington, regardless of what the Kennedy family thinks. They are simply government employees paid for with your tax money, and some of them don't even pay their taxes. Nothing more, nothing less.”

While our brother is correct that elected officials are not kings, his premise is wrong for we are told to give honor to who honor is due, and so forth in Romans 13. Again we are to show respect and submission to those and their laws that have been placed over us.

Some brethren are well knowledgeable in political facts and the US Constitution and make what seem on the surface to be a legitimate argument against people submitting to the higher powers by claiming that these verses deal with our submitting to Kings and Kingdom’s and that we are no longer under such today. That in fact the type of Government we have puts us in the power of position over our duly elected officers. But no matter what their "Personal Feelings" are they are wrong in assuming that the above mentioned scriptures deal only with men and women who have Kings ruling over them.

While no brethren has ever came out and said that we need not submit because we are not under Monarchy anymore, it could be misinterpreted or misunderstood by some of the weaker brethren who are easily blown about by every wind of doctrine, that this is exactly what the brethren are advocating.

So I hereby submit this thread to correct any misunderstanding or misinterpretation that could arise from our brethren’s words. Posted at least twice in different threads here on this Web Forum and possibly on other sites that they may be members of as well.

I propose a question: Is God in charge of the Political Body’s of the world today where there are no Monarchy present?

While verses like, Daniel 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings:
Psalm75:6, 7 For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south.
But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God, clearly teach us that indeed that God is the one who sets up the “powers that be”. These powers are not limited to just Kings or Monarchy. The Biblical language God chose to preserve his word in are very important but not limited to the limited word meaning of today.

While it is true we may not have king’s (except in places like Burma, Thailand and Saudi Arabia) the vast majority of our nations today are dictatorial like that of Rome, Socialistic like Venezuela, Federalist like that of the UK, or Democratic like that of the US. Some are religiously dictatorial like Iran. I think that suffices to show that king’s are not so much in power today as they were in the past. But does this excuse us from obeying Romans 13, Titus3:1 or1Peter2?

How would one come to such a blatantly heretical view of God’s word as to claim the because we are no longer under kings? And that Romans 13 should not be viewed to mean our current government but King's? It is because of two reasons, 1) It comes by not studying the word of God as commanded in 2Tim 2:15, and 2) And it comes by wrongly dividing the word of truth. In the case of the later using the fact that we have no king so we should not view our elected officials as a higher powers that are ordained of God. This is using the When or Who questions of the 5 W’s and the H’s study system and applying it incorrectly with a pretext of Romans 13 already in mind before studying it out.

So let’s begin with some simple word studies to determine what words are used and their meanings. We will use first use rule meaning if applicable and contextual meaning if nothing seems to fit. Let us see if these word are limited to Only Kings.

There are many words used to describe who we are to submit to in our “Doctrine of Submission to Higher Powers”. These are words that represent who the Authority is and are in the sight of God and man. 1) powers, 2) rulers, 3) ministers, 4) king, 5) governors, 6) principalities, and 7) magistrates. You will notice that in these sets of Scriptures quoted above there are seven words used to represent authority here on earth. Seven meaning perfection so in this case for believers, God has not left us perfect rulers, but a perfect system by which we are to obey. And as we an see kings are only one of them.

1) Power, powers

Powers is used only 13 times in all of Scriptures and only found in the N.T. And it is the first word used in the Base “Doctrine of Submission to higher Powers” as this relates to governing Authorities found in Romans 13:1. There are two Greek words for Power Dunamis this word has the meaning of physical power or strength, and Exousia has the meaning of authority and liberty.

Power - is used 261 times Throughout Scriptures and 119 times in the O.T. alone and 142 in the N.T. There are 21 different Hebrew words for Power and Powers in the OT. So we will look at these 21 uses first thent he Greek in the NT.

“Koach” The use found in Genesis 31:6 Here it is the person physical and mental strength of a man. Used more often for power than any other word.

“El” Another use of power is found in Genesis 31:29. This is an interesting Hebrew word. Now “el” is a shortened word God, it literally means almighty, so the power in Laban says he has is authority or the power of God to do Jacob harm. He admits that the El-ohim would not allow him the power over Jacob and so Laban submits to God not to say any bad thing or do any harm as he lays claim to.

“Sarah”this third use of the word Power is found in Genesis 32:28. is from the Hebrew word. Which is like the power of a prince’s in which is it royally decreed with both authority of power and physical strength to rule, reign and conquer.

“Az” the fourth use is found in Genesis 49:3 the Hebrew word meaning here is Exceedingly strong and it has a wicked or evil connotation

“Mashal” A fifth use of the word power is found in Exodus 21:8 This word has the meaning of authority, or rule. Literally in this context this man no longer has authority over the maidservant.

“Yakol” A sixth use is found in Numbers 22:38 Here the meaning of personal action. Literally he is saying, “I have no power over my words but can only speak that which God tells me too”.

“Yad” A seventh use of the word Power is found in Deut 32:36 Here the Hebrew is also translated hand also meaning they were in total confusion with no direction or authority to guide them.

“Chayil” An eight use is found in 1Samuel 9:1 The Hebrew word means pure physcial strength or brute force.

“G@buwrah” A ninth use of the word power is found in 1Chronicles 29:11 The hebrew here is which in this verse has the meaning of complete power over all

“Memshalah” A tenth usage of the word is found in 2Chronicles 32:9 Here the Hebrew word is which represents all those to whom Sennacherib has under his authority and control.

“Oz” An eleventh usage is found in Ezra 8:22 Now this Hebrew word for power (I always wondered where they got the name for the movie “Wizard of Oz”) has a meaning of an attribute to God so here the “his power” is God’s strength or omnipotence - all powerful. By the way this word is used primarily concerning God. Only once is it used concerning an earthly kingdom.

“Shalat” A twelfth use for the word of power found in the OT is Ester 9:1 Here is the Hebrew word which has the literal meaning of to govern or rule over not used in the previous use of the word power in the decree that Haman had the King sign. The reason for the different use is the decree was changed and it would be the Jews who would have the power over their enemies.

“Toqeph” A thirteenth meaning of the word is found in Ester 10:2 Here the Hebrew word is tells us all that was established by the Kings authority.

“Ariyts” A fourteenth use of the word power is found in Psalm 37:35 The Hebrew word which literally means a tyrannical oppressive rule or authority.

“Z@rowa” A fifteenth use is found in Ps 79:11 Here the Hebrew word means power literally by God’s strong arm.

“shiltownz” A sixteenth use of the word Power is found in Eccl 8:4 The word here is of Aramaic derivative which means a potentate power.

“Izzuwz” A seventeenth use is found in Isa 43:17 This Hebrew word is similar to the Japanese word Izusu which also means power - both races are Shemite. It has the meaning of power in numbers or masses as in “united we are strong” or “together we have strength”.

“Checen” An eighteenth use is found in Daniel 2:37 The Hebrew wordof Aramaic derivative with the simple meaning of power for authority over the nations.

“Sh@let” A nineteenth meaning meaning also found in Daniel Daniel 3:27 The Hebrew word is of Aramaic origins. The context gives us the meaning that the fire had no mastery or ability to destroy or harm their bodies.

“Suwr” A Twentieth meaning is found in Hosea 12:4 the Hebrew word meaning is by context Jacob literally he had physical stamina or power over the angel.

And finally the twenty-first meaning of the word Power as found in the O.T. Before we present the Hebrew word let me point out this is the 21st meaning, 7 times 3, for the word power in the Hebrew scriptures.

“Kaph” and is found located in Habakkuk 2:9 The Hebrew word here is it means power in the midst. The context lets us see that he who would not have an evil desire upon his house to exalt himself for if he does not have this evil desire he will be delivered from power of evil that is to come upon them.


There are only a few words that represent power in the N.T.

1) Dunamis -physical strength or power, used more often for the word power than all others combined

2) Exousia - which is Authority that seems to be given by God in most uses, also ones own will power which is you power or authority over oneself

3) Megaleiotes used exclusively of God in the N.T. Is equal to omnipotence or all powerful,

4) Arche which literally means those in the office of Authority over people like police or judges. Used only once for power.

5) Dunatos the context best describes the meaning of this word is “to make his full or ultimate power known”. This word is only used once for power

6) Dunamai the ability to have physical power or strength. It is the root word of the word Dunamis and Dunatos.

7) Kratos Literally means Great Power and in most uses that power is the power of God. Used only six times for the word power.

8) Ischus similar to the Dakota American Native word Ithuse which means power (both races are of the line of Seth) in the context of each use it means glorious power that can be seen or experienced by one from another. Only used twice for the word power

9) Didomi two times this word is used for power that is given, and three times the word power is supplied by the translators to go with this word which means “to give or given”.

Well suffice to say, we have learned a lot about the words power and powers. We see that Power and Powers are used and held by God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Kings, Angles and Men in general. We see that these can have power over angles, devils, armies, kingdoms, men and even their own consciences. There is no way we can get from the word powers in Romans 13 to literally mean kings or Monarchy’s only as some brethren have implied.

So let’s look at the other words the Lord inspired in our foundational scriptures we are using for the basis of our Doctrine of “Submission to higher Powers”. This time only if necessary will I look up the meanings from the O.T.. Which leads us to our next word in our study rulers..

But before lets just look at the first meaning of the word Ruler and Rulers as found in the Book of Genesis.

The first use of ruler is found in Genesis 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him [ruler] over all the land of Egypt. We see here that the first use of the world ruler in concerning Joseph and that other than the Pharaoh, that is the King of Egypt, Josehp is a ruler but not king. So from the first use we can establish that a ruler is not always a king. However to be fair the word ruler here was added by the translators to the Hebrew word Nathan which means made one in this case made him ruler. In Genesis 43:16 the first use of ruler not supplied is the Hebrew word Bayith which means in the context the one in charge over the affairs of the house.

The first use of the word Rulers in the Scriptures is found in Genesis 47:6 The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle. Here the Hebrew word is Sar one set to watch over, to govern or steward. Jacob and his sons were made overseers of the cattle of the Pharaoh.

2) Rulers -
Rulers is used 21 times in the New Testament

Archisunagogos Is the first use in the NT is concerning those who rule over the Synagogues. It literally it means the Director of the Synagogue. In this case in Matt 5 it was one of many rulers of many synagogues.

Hegemon This is another word used for ruler. It means a ruler of a certain place like a governor of a province, a captain of a Baranagay (a district chairman), it also means a Prince.

Archon This word means the chief of rulers often a prince or a governor. The house of representatives, the Senate and Congress all have chairmen over them, these men would be the Archon or chief rulers. The rulers of rulers. This is also the use found in Romans 13.

Politarches Yes as you can see this is where we get our word Politician from. It is literally what we would equal to our Mayor or a town magistrate. This was equal to our modern day elected official. Generally a Politarche was approved by a local assembly of townsmen and then appointed officially by the Governor.

And finally the last use of the word rulers is
Kosmokrator break it down Kosmo the world and krator is a ruler who seized power and is doing all he can to hold fast that power. It is a epithet for Satan and is only found and used once in Ephesians 6:12 of rulers of darkness of this world

additional words for ruler are
Kathistemi - one who has been appointed to rule over an estate or affairs of another
Architriklinos - the ruler of the feast, and MC or a restaurant owner

There we have seven Greek words all used for the term Rulers. We see that men are rulers in every use of the word ruler and yet none of them can be exclusively used for a King, a Kingdom or a Monarchy.

Our next word is Minister. The use in the is quite simple it is a servant but of a much higher rank as Joshua was the Minister of Moses, Aaron and his sons were minister unto the priest’s office and minister’s unto God.

3) Minister and Ministers

the first use is the word
Diakonos This is the Greek word we get our word deacon. This is the usage in Romans 13 a servant of the people. Diakoneo same root as the first and similar in meaning. This used twice in Romans 13:4 Diakonia same root means one who ministers to others especially in an assmebly

Huperetes a subordinate servant. Literally a servant placed under the charge of another servant. Hupereteo same root as the above word and with the same meaning a subordinate servant

Leitourgos a public servant of a temple or the gospel we get our English words Liturgical and Liturgy from this Greek word.

Ergazomai a minister by trade, a public servant paid for by the people of whom he serves.

Choregeo Literally means a dance leader, by implication this minister when he ministers to a ministers, he also ministers to those under that minister. a person who teaches one, who in turn teaches another. A teacher of teachers per say or a minister of ministers.

Didomi we saw this word used for Power now here as minister. See above

Parecho to bring occasion in the context to bring questions.

We have looked at all the meanings for Minister and Ministers in the NT and we can see that men only minister and we see that their actions and words minister. But again we cannot conclude that Ministers only applies to Kings, Kingdom or Monarchy’s

4) King

Pretty much a King is the supreme over a land a people and nations who he has conquered. Only two Greek words for king or kings. The second use listed is only used as a plural for kings.

Basileus or Basileuo a sovereign, to rule or King this is the use found in our base supporting scripture of 2Peter 2:13.

5) Governors
This word is used 21 times total in the whole Bible but only 3 times in the New Testament. Basically these are men to rule over other men in regions, provinces, Cities and districts. While Governor is used 24 times in the New Testament

Hegemon see above under rulers.
Hegemoneuo same root as above meaning to act as ruler:--be governor. This word is only used twice and only in Luke.
Hegeomai same root as above to lead, i.e. command (with official authority); figuratively, to deem, i.e. consider:--account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.

Oikonomos a house-distributor (i.e. manager), or overseer, i.e. an employee in that capacity; by extension, a fiscal agent (treasurer); figuratively, a preacher (of the Gospel):--chamberlain, governor, steward.

Ethnarches the governor (not king) of a district: especially over ones ethnic group

Euthunoto straighten (level); technically, to steer:--governor, make straight. The power to direct and not necessarily a person. In this only use of governor it is speaking literally of a Rudder of a ship that is controlled by the helm. Figuratively it speaks of the tongue being ruled by the person.

So governor is a person in charge of something or a place to rule over something or some persons. These are not said to be Kings but mostly are subordinate to a King. So here again the words use din our base scriptures really have no specific meaning as to a King, Kingdom or a Monarchy

6) Principalities
Seen times the word Principalities is used in Scripture one in the OT and 6 in the NT.

The first use of this word in the Scriptures is found in Jeremiah 13:18 Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory. The Hebrew word is Mar'ashah which literally and according tot he context means the collective kingdom of the King

Arche is the sole use for the word in the NT. Which we saw above under power. It is used here with the same meaning for ones appointed to rule over with Authority.

Well principalities are the far reaches of a kingdom ruled over by appointed men but they themselves are not Kings.

Now for our final word
Magistrate is found only 8 times in Scriptures

the first use and only use in the OT is in Ezr a7:25 And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not. The Hebrew word is Sh@phat to judge:--magistrate. One to judge large matters that a regular judge cannot make a proper decision over. It would be like our Supreme Court Judge.

7) Magistrates

Arche see above under powers and pricipalities

Strategos a general, i.e. (by implication or analogy) a (military) governor (praetor), the chief (praefect) of the (Levitical) temple-wardens:--captain, magistrate. A Strategist like a General who plans out movements of his troops from a base camp. Basically one who is the rules over others

Peitharcheo - to be persuaded by a ruler, i.e. (genitive case) to submit to authority; by analogy, to conform to advice:--hearken, obey (magistrates). This is the use in Titus 3:1 to give heed to the magistrate.

Again we can see that none of these Greek words for Magistrates can be exclusive to a King, a Kingdom or a Monarchy.

Conclusion

While some would say they would like us to give up our notions that the US Government or governments like it are not to be liken to kings because Royalty no longer rules these nations. Thereby hinting that Scriptures like Romans 13 are not applicable because we are no under Royal rule have not done their Biblical Homework. We have gone through the scriptures and the words employed never once limited our Obedience to just Kings. We are to submit to the Higher Powers and to principalities, We are to obey the Magistrates and rulers, and we are to submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake.

For if we do not we need to live in fear of those whom God has placed in charge over us. Whether these be voted in by lawful assemblies under a democracy or if they be tyrants who usurped authority and oppress the people. Our duty is to God and His word and if we can not obey it in these Scriptures to submit to the Higher Powers how can we say we are Bible practicing Bible Believing men and women.

And our submission is for the Lord’s sake not our own or the nation in which we live. It is so the Lord wont be blasphemed by His body's disobedience to his own word. Adam needed only follow and submit to one rule. Paul and Peter knew we are men of like passions as Adam and we to need to be reminded that we are to submit to the governing Authority. No matter how they rule over us we are to submit to them and follow their laws that govern over our lives. Whether we like it or not that is the command from the Lord via his servant Paul and Peter as an ensample left us by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[Biblestudent]

This topic is quite difficult in some situations.

[chette777]

fell free to expound any part of it.

My main point was that we are commanded by God's holy word to submit to the higher powers and principalities of this world's governments, and to obey the rulers an every ordinances of men.

Some would have us think that because men are no longer under kingship's that Romans 13 doesn't fully apply today. But I beg to differ for the scriptures are clear on the matter and not once did any of the words used by Paul or Peter limit themselves to just kings and their monarchy's.

[chette777]

Just so nobody misunderstands.

We are to obey as long as it does not contradict Gods clear revelation in Scriptures. The issue of taxes is not one of those contradictions.

If a city passes a law that you must get a permit to preach in the street you need to get a permit.

But if that same city passes a law that say's telling people about Jesus, talking about the authority of the Bible, being a Christian or praying to Jesus in illegal and anyone caught doing so will be persecuted to the fullest extent of the Law. I will be the first to be arrested and if I get the three strike rule God will be glorified in my imprisonment for life for telling the world about his Son.

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

The following comments are some of my observations and beliefs concerning this issue:

Re: “Submission to Higher Powers of Governing Authority”

The issue of “submission to higher powers of governing authority” is a very controversial issue, especially amongst American Christians. The question always arises: Are we (Christians) obligated (by the Scriptures) to be in subjection to all laws, without exception?

There are literally thousands of laws in the United States. There are county, city, state and federal laws. There are so many that it is impossible to know them all! Are we to be in subjection to every single one of them? Of course not! We are not obligated to obey any law that runs contrary to the clear teachings of the Holy Scriptures - Like (for instance) the compulsory school attendance laws. To whom do children belong - Parents or Caesar? Whose children are they? To whom did God give them? [Genesis 33:5, 48:9; Psalms 127:3] The issue of authority is far more complex than many Christians make it out to be.

Question: Can we (Christians) take a specific occurrence in the Old Testament, directed towards the nation of Israel, corrupted by sin, and apply it to a New Testament Christian or to the church? {Perhaps sometimes – but not always.}

Question: Was Daniel in total subjection to the “higher authorities” – ALL OF THE TIME?

On one occasion Daniel “requested” to be excused from the requirements of the law, and he and the three Hebrew children with him were excused “lawfully”. Daniel 1:8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.

On another occasion [Daniel 6:10] Daniel knew that a law had been passed prohibiting him from worshipping according to the dictates of his conscience. In that case: Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

In the previous Scriptural example, Daniel openly defied the laws of man, and if God hadn’t intervened, he would have suffered the consequences of his actions {which he was willing to do – for his convictions.}

Daniel did not walk into the Lion’s den of his own accord - he was thrown (cast) into it (because he “broke the law of the Medes & Persians”)! Daniel 6:16 Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.

Either Daniel was in total submission or he wasn’t - there is no grey area in this matter. Moses’ parents resisted “the powers that be”; Moses resisted “the powers that be”; as did most of the prophets (at one time or another). Daniel resisted “the powers that be”, as did the three Hebrew children. Joseph and Mary resisted “the powers that be”; as did the wise men. The Lord resisted “the powers that be”, as did His disciples. Read the Bible – God’s people have always been in conflict with “the powers that be”. And the Bible is real clear as to WHO we should obey when this conflict arises: Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.The admonition is perfectly clear. IF “the powers that be” command or require Christians to obey them rather than God - we are to obey God. {Which means that individual Christians will have to know their Bibles well enough to know “what God hath said”, so they can act on their own (according to Scripture), without the “spiritual guidance” of religious dictators.}

Christians, in the past, often had to obey “the powers that be”, not only because the Scriptures said to, but because, more often than not, they had no choice. What more could they have done? (They either obeyed; or suffered; or died. Rebellion was out of the question.)

Living in a Republic or Democracy “complicates” things for us, because we can (sometimes) go to Court and contest unjust laws; or we can “protest” (peacefully & “lawfully”) laws that we know go against “nature itself” (like ABORTION or SAME-SEX “marriage”); or we can choose to get involved in the election process and work to get decent people elected to office; or (as in our particular situation in 1973) concerning the upbringing, training, and education of our children - we can choose to DEFY the law, and bring up our children in the “nurture and admonition of the Lord”, regardless of what Caesar says.

We have CHOICES that most people in the past didn’t have. Now that doesn’t negate the Scriptural commands concerning the powers that be, it just “complicates” the matter, since according to the Supreme Law of the Land (the Constitution of the United states Of America) - Americans have certain “rights” under the Law that are not supposed to be “abrogated” by the government.

In the early 1980’s (when the “Christian Patriot Movement” was in full swing) I spent quite a bit of time examining their cause and their claims. After much research, I found out that many of the things that they said about the Constitution; individual rights (as delineated by the Constitution); States’ rights; taxes; etc. were true – however, their uses of the Scriptures, to justify some of their actions, was unscriptural and not sound.

Most of their claims could not be supported by history; and although many of the concepts and precepts adopted by our forefathers had a Biblical basis, and many Christians participated in the founding of our country, America was never a “Christian Nation” or “God’s Country” – NOT like Israel. Not only that, many of the “Christian” leaders of the Patriot movement of the 1980's were trying to emulate the early Puritans; that is, it appeared to me that they wanted to set up another “Theocracy” (like the Puritans of old - hello Calvin) which I personally believe is unscriptural..

There are some things that I did learn from my studies though, that have led me to adopt or embrace certain personal convictions, that I believe are in agreement with Scripture, but are not very popular with most of my Christian brethren - such as the “LICENSING” of churches, i.e. the government “incorporation requirement” - a “permission slip” from Caesar to exist; SPECIAL PRIVILEGES given to churches and pastors, the “licensed privilege” to perform marriages & tax exemption; {I wonder what God thinks about His people getting a “tax break” on money supposedly given to Him?}; government control of all education (even “licensed” Christian schools); government control over marriage “licensing” (if the government has the “right” to “LICENSE” marriage, why wouldn’t it have the “right” to DEFINE it?). Like I said before, this is a much more complicated issue than it may appear on the surface.

I have heard pastors say that we are to obey 100% of all the laws of mankind, but when asked about all of the saints, both in the Old & New Testament, who disobeyed or defied certain laws of mankind, they get awfully quite.It’s easy to say or tell others what they should or should not do, but in practice this issue is far more difficult to judge. I certainly am not saying “let your conscience be your guide” in this matter, but what may seem to be rebellion against “the powers that be”, may not be rebellion at all.

When (in 1973) we pulled our children out of the government school and started home schooling them, many Christians did not approve of our actions. Remember, hardly anyone home schooled in 1973. We had “pastors” exclaim that we were “breaking the law” – that we were supposed to “render unto Caesar what is Caesars’”. However, when I would ask the “pastors” who objected to our actions, whose children, are they? Or - since when did God give our children to Caesar? None of them could answer or if they did, their answers never lined up with the Scriptures.

Move forward 35 years and NOW home schooling is an accepted practice (amongst many Christians at least), so the question arises: WHO was right? The “pastors” who condemned what we did, or us? Hmmm? This is why I say this is far more complicated than just – obey ALL of the laws of mankind. The first thing a Christian has to know is - are ALL of the laws of mankind, that they require or demand that we follow, in line with those things that God requires or demands that we follow? And in order to know that, a Christian is going to have to STUDY the Scriptures so that he can know just exactly what it is that God requires of us, and obey those things – regardless of what other Christians may “think” or “believe”, and regardless of what the government may say or do.

I do not believe in or support armed rebellion against the government, but I sure am thankful that our forefathers obtained the liberty that I now enjoy. (Who knows for how much longer?) I am not a “tax protestor”, but much of what the “tax protestors” say about our punitive (“progressive”?) taxes is true; I am in no way an Anarchists, but our government is selectively targeting Christians and prosecuting them, and making “examples” of them, while Humanists, atheists, Muslims, etc. are given a pass.

Christians down through the centuries of church history have always wrestled with this issue. Are we to obey the higher powers 100% like some Christians claim we must, or, if a law is clearly contrary to the Scriptures are we to obey God and trust Him, and live with the consequences, whatever they may be? {Do we "give a pinch of salt" to Caesar or don't we? The Romans didn't care about your religious beliefs, as long as once a year you would take a pinch of salt and say Caesar is Lord. Many first century believers died because they refused to take that pinch of salt. I wonder what most believers would do today?}

Although obeying or submitting to the higher authorities is clearly taught in Scripture (brother Chette clearly demonstrated that) the “problem” arises as to WHAT constitutes legitimate (lawful) Scriptural defiance of the laws of mankind? At the time my wife and I pulled our children out of the government schools, we were roundly criticized by many brethren and condemned by others. Were we wrong? What has changed since 1973? WHY is home schooling “accepted” now, but not then?

We were convinced (after thoroughly searching the Scriptures) that God had given our children to us; (NOT the government) and that we had the responsibility to raise them according to the word of God, which we determined was practically impossible if we continued to send them to the godless, Humanistic, anti-Scriptural, anti-Christian government schools; and based on that conviction, and according to our conscience, we acted on our belief.

Are there contradictions in the Bible? I trow not! However, along with the Scriptural commandments to obey and submit to the higher authority, we have numerous Scriptural examples of many of God’s saints doing just precisely the opposite! What are we to do? We are to examine those instances where God’s people, have acted in defiance of the laws of man, to learn how to challenge the laws of man in a Scripturally “acceptable” way!

I don’t believe my reasoning is “contradictory”. God is not going to encourage LAWLESSNES (even though they are man’s laws) – NOT when He established “The Law” Himself! NOT when He declares that “the law is GOOD” [Romans 7:12, 16; 1Timothy 1:8] How can a Holy and just God encourage “LAWLESSNESS” (even though they are man’s laws), after He has declared the law to be “good”? He can’t! But what he can do is make “allowances” for His people to challenge or defy man’s laws, if they are clearly against His words and His will {Thus the purpose of all of the Scriptural examples of “lawful’ disobedience to the laws of man, recorded in the Holy Scriptures - so that we can know what is “legitimate” disobedience to man’s laws and what is not.}

Since the apostle Paul was a Roman citizen by birth, he often used Roman law to protect himself and those who traveled with him. He also used Roman law to advance his and the Lord’s cause. He emphasized striving “lawfully”, and if Christians today use the laws of the country they reside in to protect themselves, or further their cause, or the Lord’s cause - they are following the “pattern” (or “ensample”) that the Apostle Paul left for us. [1 Corinthians 4:16, 11:1; Philippians 3:17; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 2 Thessalonians 3:7-9; 1 Timothy 1:16].

There are many different examples of “acceptable” disobedience to man’s laws recorded in the Holy Scriptures. I do not believe that God is in favor of lawlessness or rebellion; and yet on the other hand, I have great difficulty suggesting total passivity when it comes to dealing with an intrusive government. What did Paul do? Paul used his “rights” as a Roman citizen at various times. Are we to ignore the "rights" that we have as citizens of the United States?

There are some pastors who “suggest” that if we have the opportunity, under our form of government, to right a wrong or correct an injustice that we are to “ignore” those opportunities and “just let God take care of it”. I believe if we have an opportunity to do right, and protect whatever “rights” that we still have, that we should avail ourselves of that opportunity. Back in the Old Testament, most of the time people were powerless under the authoritarian rule of a king or queen. If those rulers abused their power the people had no choice. It is very dangerous to use the Old Testament to establish a New Testament doctrine.

I believe it behooves us to be extremely cautious in judging other Christians when it comes to this issue. There are clear Scriptural commands for us to submit and obey, and there are plenty of Scriptural examples where God’s people challenged, ignored, disobeyed, and defied some of those laws. It is clear to me that we are not to be LAWLESS, but on the other hand, it is always better “to obey God, rather than men”.

In the end, we Christians must live according to the Scriptural understanding that God gives us. In 1973 my wife and I were “judged” by many of the brethren as being lawless and going against the teachings of Romans Chapter 13. We were convinced (after carefully searching the Scriptures) otherwise, and followed our convictions.

In 1983 the state of Hawaii took us to court and tried to force us to send our children to their godless schools. After spending all of our savings defending ourselves (and our children) in court – God gave us the victory over the State, and ultimately our victory led to the State of Hawaii “liberalizing” their home schooling laws, which made it much easier for those Christian parents who desired to home school their children, but who were fearful of State retaliation.

Today (in Hawaii) we are known as the “pioneers” and “grandparents” of the home schooling movement on the island of Kauai and throughout the State of Hawaii. Did we do right (according to the Scriptures) in defying the “compulsory attendance” laws of the State? I believe we did – most Christians at the time disagreed with us. Who was right? WHO was wrong?

We better be very careful when we judge other Christians when it comes to these matters. It’s not as simple as some Christians would have you believe.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

[chette777]

Brother George,

I couldn't agree more. I did not elaborate much and as I hinted at there are times when I would choose to disobey i.e. making talking preaching or Sharing Christ illegal. when running my organization though I am best to follow the law and pay my taxes the way they say it should be done.

In the case of home schooling you were correct to obey God rather than men and in that I fully agree. God gives us the responsibility to raise our kids and when the admonition of the Lord is not taught in school then we are responsible to educate the way God wants.

I am not passing judgement on any man they ultimately will stand responsible for what so ever they do in this body whether good or bad. but the movement is growing today towards a full rebellion of which we would do best to stay out. for the Antichrist's kingdom must be established and we will be removed before that comes to a full reality.

I would admonish every Christian as much as it lieth in them to live peaceably with all men and that would include our higher Authority. while I understand that the issue of Obedience is one of shades we still have Gods word to guide us and to lead us. We should check it with the word of God. if it lines up obey if it doesn't they we must make a choice to do what is right. Our Obedience to God is above that of man. but we better be certain or we may find ourselves fighting against God's clear will.

Thanks for the comments.

Winman,

Once I give unto Caesar what is his (the US Govt what is theirs) I am not held responsible for what they do with it. I am held responsible with the money I bring home and how I use it. While I don't agree with abortion, gay rights or the like I must live with it until I am able to get the laws changed. but so far we have been unable to get the change of what we want. Christians are a minority when it comes to secular humanism the new religion of the Government, and we are loosing the laws of the land to this new religion. it is a sign of the times of the great falling away.

while we have the freedom to speak out we have the right to say what needs to be said so that others can be informed. But when it comes to how I withhold my employees taxes and when I need to submit those holdings that is an entirely different matter and I must follow the ordinance of man when it come to Taxes in my country.

I am advocating that we must as much as possible as long as it doesn't conflict with God law obey. We need to be careful about getting mixed up in these rebellion groups and stick to what the word of God is clear on.

[Winman]

George

Excellent post. I salute you for being a pioneer of home schooling, I did not know that. My kids were home schooled for several years (all grown now).

And Chette, I am in agreement with you, I do not think Christians should be rebels or lawless whatsoever, I am not advocating that at all. But as George pointed out, there are times when "the law" of the land clashes with Christian belief. In instances like this I think a Christian has to obey God, not man. So, the point I was trying to make is that you cannot just make a blanket doctrine saying Christians must always obey the laws of the land.

As for taxpayer funded abortion, I do feel we have a right to say how our taxes are used. One of the most famous quotations in American history is "No taxation without representation". That phrase originated with the Reverend Jonathan Mayhew a Unitarian minister. Now, I don't agree with Mayhew's beliefs, but he was right about taxes. We are supposed to be a country "Of the people, by the people, and for the people". As Bro. Parrish pointed out, the government is supposed to be the servant of the people. So, the people should have a say in how their tax money is spent. I and many millions of other Americans do not believe taxes should be used to fund abortion.

So, as George pointed out, our form of government is different from many. We not only have the right to speak out against government when it is wrong, it is our duty.

[chette777]

that is why I pointed out that the taxation is with representation just not Christian representation but secular. I do draw a line. but all in all as much a possible we should maintain good works in obeying the law of our Higher Power so that in the end they have nothing to accuse us of and they will praise us for the good we do.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by chette777

I have started this thread to post Sound Bible Believing Doctrines for Christians living today.

Feel free to add good sound Bible believing doctrines in this thread so all who come and visit this sight may learn of the sound doctrines as well as some of the controversial ones.

Blessings to all who read and learn

The Doctrine of Grace

This post does not refer to Brother Chette's teaching on the "laws" of the land, but his post did make me think of the superiority of "grace" over the Old Testament "law".

Here are some of my thoughts on the subject...

Teaching strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code is not Biblical for the New Testament believer. That is legalism. Legalism focuses on performance. Legalism focuses on plans and programs that promise favorable results. Legalism occurs in a Christian’s life today from the failure to rightly divide and believe the word of truth. As a follower of Jesus Christ we cannot appease, please, or satisfy God by keeping the law or by behaving a certain way. We must understand and accept the fact that Jesus Christ is our righteousness and has completely satisfied the just demands of God toward sin once and for all (Hebrews 10). It is finished! In Christ Jesus you are free from the yoke of bondage wrought by the law and there is nothing for you to do but receive and rest in the completed work of Jesus Christ.

Under grace you are free from the law. Do not misunderstand what I’m saying. It is a very shallow theology for anyone to believe that once you have become a Christian you can live a life of sin with no consequences. God still hates sin, but we must understand that there is absolutely “no condemnation” because Jesus Christ has completely destroyed the works of the devil once and for all. We are now free in Christ to do what is right. Our new life in Christ has given us a new power and a new desire to do what is right.

Does that mean that God’s law which was given to the nation of Israel does not have any application to us? Should we ignore His commandments because we are now under grace? If you choose to obey certain laws of God that’s fine, but it does not make you more spiritual or place you in a better standing with God. For example, if you choose to apply certain dietary laws recorded in the Old Testament that’s your choice. You have the freedom to do so. But if you choose to have a diet of medium-rare steak, shrimp, and pork chops and some chocolate cake for dessert that is also permitted. You may indeed be judged by the legalistic Christian but you are not setting yourself up for the judgment and wrath of God.

The only time we should avoid eating meat is when it becomes offensive to a “weaker” brother.

“For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him” (Romans 14:2-3).

Notice the weaker brother is the one who avoids meat and sticks to herbs. I’ve known individuals who had an “air of spiritual superiority” because they keep God’s dietary laws. You are not more spiritual because you are a strict vegetarian. And be careful with the attitude that you will live a “healthier” and “longer” life because you abstain from meats. Avoid dumping your “personal standard” on others.

The Book of Galatians

Legalism was the core issue with the Church at Galatia. The book of Galatians addresses the law and its inferiority compared to the amazing, immeasurable, and abundant grace that is ours in Christ Jesus. Consider the following passages:

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

That is strong language. Those who do not preach the gospel, how that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, who do not proclaim that Christ alone is the propitiation for our sins, who do not proclaim He is the only one who brings complete forgiveness, who do not teach we are justified by faith in Him alone, who teach something in addition to Christ is required in order to prove, maintain, and mature their spiritual life, are legalistic.

“And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:” (Galatians 2:4).

Notice the false brethren who introduced the law were said to have brought the believers into bondage. The genuine Christian life is not a combination of Jesus Christ plus obedience to certain laws or commandments. The genuine Christian life is a life committed to Jesus Christ which in turn will spontaneously bring forth good fruit. When we are connected to the True Vine, Jesus Christ, we will yield fruit. Genuine faith produces genuine works.

Years ago while lying in bed I glanced upward and observed some decorations on our canopy. Beautiful clusters of grapes hung from green leafy branches that wrapped around the rails. The words “you can do nothing” from John 15:5 continued to echo in my mind. That is when it first occurred to me. I observed that the branch was simply abiding in the vine. There was no toiling or striving to bring forth fruit. The branch was not ambitious, regimented, or even talented. It too was helpless, yet it flourished in the vine. The branch was alive and productive; yet resting.

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

Do you know that in Christ you are justified? We are declared righteous. That’s the miracle of grace through Christ.

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

The righteousness of God is perfectly righteous and it’s yours in Christ.

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (Galatians 2:21).

It’s not in your doing or performing. The abundant life is in your being and your new identity in Christ. “Free from the law oh happy condition, Jesus hath bled and there is remission.”

“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” (Galatians 3:1-3).

“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe” (Galatians 3:21-22).

Don’t be fooled and bewitched by the legalist. Faith is the victory. Jesus has paid it all. Love Him. Serve Him. Follow Him. Why would you return to the weak and beggarly elements of attempting to please God by strict conformity and obedience to rules, laws, statutes, and commandments?

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:24-28).

What is the purpose of the law? To bring us to Christ.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage” (Galatians 5:1).

Personally, I think this is the greatest doctrine in the Bible.