[chette777]

I heard another pastor say that OT Saints looked ahead to the cross of Jesus Christ. He also said they KNEW that someday God would send his Son to die and cover all their sins which were being covered temporarily by the bolood of Bulls and Goats. They say, that they understood the scriptures about Christ coming sacrifice for sins that was revealed to them in their time (dispensation).

I have asked them to give me OT verses that prove that they knew about Jesus Christ comeing and dying onthe cross. None have been given. the only ones they give are NT and they out of context. Like Romans 3:25 and saying past meant passover. EEK! the context is of the person at that the time of Paul who beleived (look at the verses before and after) it was for their personal past sins not God passing over the sins of OT saints.

So here is my Challenge. I need OT verses that support these preachers statements that they KNEW clearly about Christ sacrifice to come, God sending his Son. (before you jump to Isaiah you need to remeber what Peter taught - so read it below) that is they were indeed with full knowledge looking forward to the cross of Christ.

Peter tells us they did not understand the scriptures that prophecied of Christ and they longed too and that not even the angels understood by desired too. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you" is Israel, not church age saints (we were a mystery that peter claimed God was saving them Gentiles just as us Israel in Acts). it the prophecy was not for them in the in their dispensation but for Israel in a later dispensation. The "unto us they did minister the things which ARE NOW REPORTED unto you (Israel)" Again is Jews not church age saints. they did not understand the prophecies.

and what about Noah, was he looking forwardto the cross, or Abraham was he looking forward. where are these verses that show they did that they are quick to claim that supports their teaching. None I tell you none.

[George]

Aloha brother Chette,

I'm with you 100% on this issue.

How can anyone explain away that even His disciples "understood none of these things" and "knew not"?

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

[Luke 24:13-48]
Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Unless the Lord opens a man's eyes to understand the Holy Scriptures - the Truth will be "hid" from them, just like it was for the Lord's disciples and the Prophets of the Old Testament.

No one fully "understood" the death, burial, and resurrection, until the Lord "revealed" the "mysteries" (hidden in times past) to the Apostle Paul!

[Samuel]

Has anyone pulled this one on you yet, it seems to say that Abraham knew about Christ. And if Abraham knew, the rest of the prophets would have known also.

Joh:8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

[Samuel]

And these verses also.

1Pe:1:10: Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe:1:11: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe:1:12: Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Ok, I see you have these.


This comes pretty close.

Ho:2:23: And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

[chette777]

Sam, Good try but no candy (seeing we don't have or smoke cigars). you see the OT verses would have to clearly state that God would send his son to die on the cross so that their sacrifices which are not good enough can be perfected in the work of the son trough a propitation death and sacrificial atonement. and to the Jews a mans death and blood was not included inthe sacrifices for sin. if a mans blood was offered as a atonement it would defile the temple and the Altar under OT Despensation.

A mans blood was shed because he shed someone eles in OT Law and for a few other reasons like not obeying the sabbath, commiting adultary. but never shed for the forgiveness of sins.

I think it is safe to say we could offer a million dollars and no one could claim it becasue there are no OT verses to support such nonsense.

[chette777]

OkAny body have any OT verses that clearly teach that OT saint under law or any other dispensation KNEW about Christ coming to die on the cross for their sin?

[George]

Originally Posted by Samuel

"Has anyone pulled this one on you yet, it seems to say that Abraham knew about Christ. And if Abraham knew, the rest of the prophets would have known also."

John:8:56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Aloha brother Samuel,

I have had someone pull that on me on another Forum last year. My answer then (as it is now) - the "DAY" that the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of was NOT the "day" of His crucifixion, it is "THE 'DAY' OF THE LORD". When Jesus Christ (As KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS) returns to this earth to rule and reign forever.

There are so many Christians (especially nowadays) who think - "it's all about ME! Or it's all about US Christians! I've got "news" for them - IT'S ALL ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST & HIS KINGDOM!

Why would Abraham be "glad" and "rejoice" over the Crucifixion of the LORD OF GLORY?

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You see the problem is in assuming or privately interpreting that the "day" Abraham was speaking about was the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, but that wasn't just one "day" - it was three days & three nights! [Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.]

The death, burial, and resurrection is never called or referred to as a single "day". However, the return of the Lord Jesus Christ to rule and to reign in the Millennium is referred to (over and over) as "The Day of The Lord": {Isa 2:12; 13:6,9; 34:8; Jer 46:10; La 2:22; Eze 13:5; 30:3; Joe 1:15; 2:1,11,31; 3:14; Am 5:18,20; Ob 1:15; Zep 1:7-8,14,18; 2:2-3; Zec 14:1; Mal 4:5; Ac 2:20; 1Co 5:5; 2Co 1:14; 1Th 5:2; 2Pe 3:10}; or "the great day of the Lord", or "the great day", or "the great day of His wrath", or "that great day of God Almighty": {Zep 1:14; Jude 1:6; Re 6:17; 16:14}; or "The Lord's Day": {Re 1:10}; or "my day": {John 8:56}.

Instead of speculation, conjecture, supposition, or assumption - It's amazing what a study of Scripture (with Scripture) will reveal!

Oh, by the way, I was "BANNED" from that other Forum for presenting this, and other Scriptures demonstrating that there was no way that any Old Testament saint ever knew or understood the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ - How could they have? His own disciples "didn't get it" until after the Lord was killed, buried, and arose from the dead. As a matter of fact - they still "didn't get it" until He "revealed" the truth to them and opened up their "understanding"!

[Diligent]

Bro. Chette has pointed out that the notion that OT saints "looked forward" to the cross is strained at best. What about the disciples "looking back" at it?

Luke 24:3-11 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. ... He is not here, but is risen: ... And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ... And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

They were so ignorant of Christ's work, that even after he had completed it, they didn't believe it.

What do we call someone who regards the "tale" of Christ's resurrection as "idle?" Lost!

It seems strange to me to say that Saints pre-Christ were saved by the same Gospel as we.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Diligent

Bro. Chette has pointed out that the notion that OT saints "looked forward" to the cross is strained at best. What about the disciples "looking back" at it?

Luke 24:3-11 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. ... He is not here, but is risen: ... And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. ... And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

They were so ignorant of Christ's work, that even after he had completed it, they didn't believe it.

What do we call someone who regards the "tale" of Christ's resurrection as "idle?" Lost!

It seems strange to me to say that Saints pre-Christ were saved by the same Gospel as we.

I am amazed that He has given me, and all true believers, the written word and spiritual understanding to go with it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I do not know exactly what the prophets of old understood. But this I do know, God has opened our eyes of spiritual understanding. Therefore, I am able to read those Old Testament prophecies with a new mind and perspective. I see Jesus in them. How very blessed we are to be living in this dispensation.

1 Corinthians 2:7-11 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by chette777

Peter tells us they did not understand the scriptures that prophecied of Christ and they longed too and that not even the angels understood by desired too. 1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you" is Israel, not church age saints (we were a mystery that peter claimed God was saving them Gentiles just as us Israel in Acts). it the prophecy was not for them in the in their dispensation but for Israel in a later dispensation. The "unto us they did minister the things which ARE NOW REPORTED unto you (Israel)" Again is Jews not church age saints. they did not understand the prophecies.

I'm not sure you correctly represent the passage above in 1 Peter 1 when you say they did not understand the scriptures that prophesied of Christ. I'll chew on that for a while I think. Have you any other verses that compliment this thought?