[kevinvw]

I'm sure there are people who've probably heard this before, and I did a search and didn't find anything conclusive without searching through hundreds of posts wasting time I don't have.

A preacher at my church brought up a verse which seems to clearly refute the gap theory (I'm still very undecided on the matter, and still leaning more towards the gap theory), but I was wondering what you guys think on the matter.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day and the fact that darkness exists before God makes the light, and we aren't told when the deep is made. It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth. I also know about the passage in 2 Peter 3, which is kind of a murky passage as well, but does give a lot more support for the gap theory than it does for saying that verses 5 & 6 refer to the flood of Gen 7, because the earth during the flood was covered in water, not overflowed with water, being IN and OUT of it, and the obvious implications of the heaven and earth of old, the heaven and earth that are now, and the new heaven and earth.

I realize i just gave most of the major refutations that actually work on both sides of the argument. I don't consider Satan's fall and the sons of God one because there was, at the most, 130 years before the fall of Adam, also Ruckman's case on the meaning behind the implications of the word worlds in Hebrews 1:2 and 11:3 aren't that great either, but I completely understand why he would have said it. I was wondering if any of you guys had anything else on the subject.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by kevinvw

The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day....

...and the fact that darkness exists before God makes the light, and we aren't told when the deep is made.

It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth.

Brother Kevin, please forgive my “uneducated” answer. I’ve not read any material on the GAP theory, believe it or not, so my understanding is from what I perceive the scriptures to teach, not from well learned men. Here it goes.

Personally, I believe verses 1-5 represent one day.

Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here’s why.

Genesis 1:1 says, of course, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Genesis 1:31 says, “And God saw every thing that he had made [to include the heaven and the earth], and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

Genesis 2:3 says, “And God blessed the seventh day, [which comes after day six ] and sanctified it: [it, referring to the seventh day] because that in it [it, referring to the seventh day] he had rested from all his work [all His work to include the work in the beginning when He created the heaven and the earth] which God created and made [including the heaven and the earth]”

Based on my understanding of scripture, I simply believe that “all his work” which “God created and made,” to include the “heaven and the earth” which, again “God created, in the beginning” which He “rested from” on the “seventh day” was very good.

You wrote referring to Exodus 20:11, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day....

That's true, it's not clear. So rather than speculate, I take what scripture does give us. If you know of any other scriptures that infer a GAP existed between “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and “…God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made,” I’m open to it.

You also wrote: ...and we aren't told when the deep is made. It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth.

Your right, we’re not told when the "deep" is made. The scripture simply says, in Genesis 1:2, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Evidently, when, "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", it included the “deep” and the “waters.” Obviously, God did not divide something that was not already there. And scripture does not clarify a separate time the “deep” and “waters” were created.


Based on this, my conclusion is that the deep and the waters were included when “in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and on the second day “…God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day” (Genesis 1:7-8). Do you know of any other scriptures that support a GAP of time?

[Josh]

Amen Brother Forrest! Many Gap supporters like to use Jeremiah 4:23-28 as a descriptive of something that happened between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.

Jeremaih 4:23-28, I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

Jeremiah 4:29-31, The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. And [when] thou [art] spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; [thy] lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, [and] the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, [that] bewaileth herself, [that] spreadeth her hands, [saying], Woe [is] me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

In Christ,
Josh

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by Josh

Amen Brother Forrest! Many Gap supporters like to use Jeremiah 4:23-28 as a descriptive of something that happened between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.

Jeremaih 4:23-28, I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

Jeremiah 4:29-31, The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. And [when] thou [art] spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; [thy] lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, [and] the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, [that] bewaileth herself, [that] spreadeth her hands, [saying], Woe [is] me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

In Christ,
Josh

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

I agree with you. Not to mention the fact that "...all the birds of the heavens were fled...the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities...land shall be desolate [the words "shall be" are future tense denoting something already existed] yet will I not make a full end.

[kevinvw]

Thank you brother Forrest for your post. It definitely helped me out.

Also, I know about Jer 4:23, and it definitely is a future prophecy. Some people would argue though, that because the Holy Spirit used the same phrase in Jer 4, right after a disaster, that it would infer a disaster happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. I agree that the Holy Spirit uses certain phrases throughout scripture to denote the same certain things, but I'm not sure if the opposite is ever true. I guess it would be in this case at least if God did create everything that has ever existed 6,000 years ago in 6 days.

[MC1171611]

I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, being that I'm running on 3-4 hours of sleep and I have to work at 11 tonight (EST). However, there are a few points that were missed in this whole thing: people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do.

#1

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How many heavens? The plural form of that word doesn't show up until Genesis 2:

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Therefore, if we're going to take the WORDS of God at face value, God only created ONE heaven in Genesis 1:1. We know from 2 Corinthians 12:2 that there are THREE heavens: the atmosphere, outer space, and God's throne (or Heaven). Therefore, if there is no gap between verses 1 and 2, then either the wording is wrong, or you have to come up with two more heavens being created sometime after Genesis 1:2.

#2

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If you'll look at what the firmament is, you'll see that it's the atmosphere: the birds fly in the midst of the firmament (Gen. 1:20); and space (Gen. 1:14-15). Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That firmament is under the dominion of someone else; THAT'S why God didn't call it good.

#3

Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(emphasis mine)

And here's the bad guy:

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Lucifer inhabited a Garden CALLED Eden; this was not a garden IN Eden, this is a garden CALLED Eden. Two different things; things that are different are not the same. There's a lot more; this always leads to a study on Lucifer that's rather mind-boggling, but now I must shower, take a nap, and get ready for work.

God bless.