[Just_A_Thought]

What makes a person a heretic?

I have seen people call each other heretics from vey minor thing to major issues. Tell me, what issues you feel makes someone a heretic?

[Luke]

Well, it depends, most of the time, the word if flung around in anger, spite or bitterness.

For example, I am arguing with a calvinist

"blah blah blah election election foreordained from the foundation of the world god hates those he didn't die for elect election elected predestinated praise god he chose me blah blah blah"

In my anger, I might say (and have said, to my shame)

"You stupid heretic, you believe God damns billions for His sovereign pleasure."

A more brotherly, loving (agape love of course, it's the bible correctors favourite) way of saying that would be

"You heretic, you believe God damns billions for His sovereign pleasure."

hehe

But more seriously, the word should only be used of those who deny the literal truth of the Bible - 6 day creation, the rapture, the second advent of Christ, but especially the blood atonement, salvation by grace through faith alone, the virgin birth, the miracles of Jesus Christ etc.

In the modern sense of the word, and the way people use it today, a heretick can be saved. For example, a heretick might not believe in the rapture, but still believes in the blood atonement (his doctrine on the end times is heretical, but he himself is not really a heretick). In the biblical sense of the word however, it is one who has completely denied Jesus Christ and is unsaved.

[MC1171611]

In my view, heresy is simply Biblical untruth. In that sense of the word, we all have heresies, large or small. In fact, that's something I've heard attributed to Dr. Ruckman; we know that being fallible humans, there's no way we can be 100% correct on every little thing. All we can do is believe the Book, accept the revelation that God gives us, and do our best to do right.

Personally I no longer sweat the little stuff and wouldn't call someone a heretic over it, although I probably have before. I think most of the things Luke mentioned would count, except I know that I believe the gap theory and he doesn't, so maybe that makes me a heretic in his book.

[Brother Tim]

aussiemama admitted,

I believe the gap theory and he doesn't, so maybe that makes me a heretic in his book.

I wouldn't say you were a heretic, just that you had a gap in your understanding of Genesis 1.

Originally Posted by Brother Tim

I wouldn't say you were a heretic, just that you had a gap in your understanding of Genesis 1.

Lol there are lots of gaps in the Bible brother, a gap of a thousand years or so between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 isn't anything out of the ordinary with all the other gaps in the Bible that are sometimes in a single verse...our pastor preached on this recently but I only heard half of it as I had to take small fussy boys outside. But hey I'll fellowship happily with non-gappers. HAHA.

[Diligent]

Not easy to define, but this is the most helpful verse, IMO:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Heresy must then be something "pretty big." Anything that misrepresents Christ and his work is heretical. Also note "privily." Most heretics I've seen (at least the dangerous ones) are not always obvious at first glace. They get into things and then start spreading there heresies.

Heretics cause divisions in fellowship:

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

But it's not only division, it's division contrary to sound doctrine:

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Also, heretics are shown to be foolish questioners and bring up striving in the law:

Titus 3:9-10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[JMWHALEN]

Originally Posted by MC1171611

In my view, heresy is simply Biblical untruth. In that sense of the word, we all have heresies, large or small. In fact, that's something I've heard attributed to Dr. Ruckman; we know that being fallible humans, there's no way we can be 100% correct on every little thing. All we can do is believe the Book, accept the revelation that God gives us, and do our best to do right.

_________
"...there's no way we can be 100% correct on every little thing. All we can do is believe the Book, accept the revelation that God gives us, and do our best to do right."
__________________________________

Agreed. Many scriptural verses command us, and encourage us to study, meditate, learn , and yes interpret the Holy Bible, and this includes learning from others, who the Holy Spirit uses to help us understand the Holy Bible.

"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" Nehemiah 8:8.

Perhaps most know that I am a former Roman Catholic. Therefore, whenever I read where one contends that we need an infallible interpretation of the scripture, or implies that we are not to interpret it, or implies that the LORD God expects/demands such, or that some "expert" is so much smarter than me("let me set this guy straight" mindset-"I've never heard/been taught what he is teaching")an infallible understanding, my "radar" goes off, and I will respond.

The following scriptures command us to search,read,and study the scriptures by rightly dividing the word of truth.: 2 Tim. 2:15, Is. 34:16, Jn 5:39,Job 32:8,Psalms 119:34,73,125,169. This same God in scripture says in Proverbs 1:23 that He will through the Holy Spirit make understandable His words. These verses, and numerous others, tells us the Holy Spirit will enable me to understand and interpret doctrine, and to discern truth from error:Proverbs 2:36, 2 Tim. 2:7,1 Thel 2:13, Eph. 5:17. If someone says I cannot understand scripture, they are calling God a liar. And I did not say "an infallible understanding of all scripture."They do not have a problem with me, they have a problem with God's word that says I can understand, and I suggest they take it up with Him.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might knowthe things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Cor. 2:12-13

"For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end..." 2 Cor. 1:13

"The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple." Psalms 119:160

The Lord Jesus Christ expected the people to read and understand the Scriptures. He said "search the scriptures", "Have you not read", "Is it not written in your law"......These all demonstrate that people were expected to read and interpret scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ continually quoted scripture as the final source of authority, and demonstrated the consequences of failure to do this-"Ye do error, not knowing the scriptures...".



He commands every one of us fallible creatures in His Word to "Search the scriptures"(John 5:39, and to "...prove all things: hold fast to that which is good"(1 Thel. 5:21), and to "rightly divide"(2 Tim. 2:15) this Holy Bible. The LORD God holds each one of us, according to His Word, responsible for what we believe and why. That is scripture's testimony. Saying "my priest/my pastor/my reverand/my psychic hotline"/what I have always been taught won't "cut the mustard", nor will saying "nobody taught me right division, therefore it is a wrong interpretation" excuse you from shame(2 Tim. 2:15) at the judgment seat of Christ(the "reward ceremony" for believers).

God has provided, in his Word, the means by which we are to learn. We are to learn from reading/studying/meditating on the Word, listening to others(such as those on this board), and learning from pastors, teachers, and preachers-all members of the Church, the Body of Christ(the "Church" is a spiritual "organnism" of people, not an organization such as the RCC). However, when developing doctrine to learn, the scriptures themselves provide the boundaries. The Bible speaks to holding fast to sound doctrine, and of testing everything by the ultimate authority of the scriptures; but testing, by its very nature, is done by fallible human beings, not some external interpreting authority, and testing does result in conflicting results many times.

But the LORD God is clear in His Word that everyone, with no exceptions, is personally responsible before Him for what they believe, and why-no "passing the buck", or "handing off", or "fourth down and punt", or..... We are learn from others, seek the wisdom, counseling, and teaching of others, but the "bottom line" is that nobody can blame anyone else for the outcome.

This concept, then, has the following outcome:First, we need not seek or expect to find absolute certainty(infallibility) on all things pertaining to God in this very brief existence here on earth. Secondly, the scriptures are the sufficient source of objective truth. Thirdly, we are to interpret the Holy Bible, if its own testimony is to be believed, and this interpretation is sometimes/many times fallible.

The conclusion of the preceding is the following: The search for infallibility on everything is doomed to failure, including interpretation, anyone's claims notwithstanding. This is because all of us are fallible creatures. But the LORD God does not call us to exhaustive, complete knowledge of everything(witness my posts)! He calls us to be serious students(look at how many times we are urged in the Bible to meditate, study) of His Word. The assurance, the certainty we have is not exhaustive, absolute, "I know it all-I am an 'expert'-but God never promised exhaustive, absolute certainty. He has promised us solid, hopeful(biblically, hope means "confident expectation") certainty, and this comes from repeated exposure to the truth as contained in His Word. And the "serious" students" that are on this board is why I am here.

The reason for this "ramble", the context as pertaining to "heretics" :
I used to "get all bent outa shape" witnessing the antic of those "nuts" on TBN, Daystar........i.e., these "back to Pentecost" "faith healers", "bark like a dog-ers", "Holy Ghost bartenders", "speaking in tongues-ers"(Shambala Mumbo Gumbo.......")..., but no more. As long as anyone professing to be a Christian, I will accept him/her, as such, assuming they accept/believe the below precepts, without compromise:

1. The deity of the Lord Jesus Christ-no compromise.

2. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Ro. 3:25; Ro. 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 9:12-14)-Salvation by grace alone , through faith in the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ alone , not of works, based on the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ 2000 years ago: His death(by blood), burial, and resurrection(1 Cor. 15:1-4, Eph. 2:8-9, Romans 5:9.......................)- no compromise

3. The Virgin Conception-no compromise

4. The Bodily Resurrection(physical, i.e., not just a "spiritual resurrection", ala "Full Preterism")- no compromise

5. Scripture alone as the final authority(no "The Lord spoke to me last night, and told me ..."=no further revelations apart from the scriptures;all that the LORD God would have us to know is contained within the Holy Bible; no 'extra-biblical'/'outside' revelations) -no compromise

6.The purity of the Holy Bible(no errors)-no compromise

Those who reject any of these precepts are indeed heretics.

Interesting:

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." 1 Cor. 11:19


Is not Paull saying that heresies will "out", "make known", so to speak, the believers that do preach "sound doctrine"?

In and with Christ,

John ""ignorant and unlearned"(Acts 4:13)" Whalen

Originally Posted by Just A Thought

What makes a person a heretic?I have seen people call each other heretics from vey minor thing to major issues. Tell me, what issues you feel makes someone a heretic?

I think that Diligent and Luke have put their fingers on it. A person isn't a heretic simply because he believes one goofy little thing, or because he doesn't believe one non-essential thing. Eating meat is a good example: I had brothers at PBI who believed that eating meat was, if not a sin, then at least displeasing to God. But they weren't heretics. If Aussiemama is a No-Gapper, that doesn't make her a heretic. If, on the other hand, she taught that the virgin birth was false, or that Jesus and Satan were "spirit brothers" (like the Mormons say), then she'd be a heretic. A heretic is somebody who perverts and twists the essential truths of God's word.

(Are Buddhists and Muslims heretics? Well, Muhammad was; he twisted the truth about Jesus. But most Muslims and Hindus and such start out from a non-Christian position, and many of them have never even heard the Gospel; they believe in false religions, but I wouldn't call them heretics. A heretic distorts and denies the Christian revelation.)

Also, there's a difference between heretics and apostates. If a saved man, like a "great evangelist," starts preaching that all men will be saved, then he's an apostate: he's "fallen away" from the truth. (That's what apostasy means: "to fall away from a standing position.") Bible correctors are apostates, but not necessarily heretics.

I would be uncomfortable calling John Calvin a heretic, although some of his doctrines were heretical. He believed the basics: the Deity of Christ, the necessity of salvation, etc. I don't think he "fell away" from the truth about baby-sprinkling or predestination, because he never knew those doctrines to begin with: he was still suffering from a "Catholic hangover," like Luther was when he hated the Jews. They were great warriors for God, in their time; but, like Solomon and Job's comforters, their doctrine was just kinda screwed up.

Specific examples: in my understanding, Rick Warren is not a heretic; he's an apostate. But Kenneth Hagin, who teaches that Jesus was "born again" in Hell, is a heretic. And anyone who teaches that speaking in tongues or water baptism are necessary for salvation are heretics, because they've tampered with the very basic doctrine of salvation. If Ruckman believed that little green men from Mars were poisoning our water supply, he'd simply be making a goofy, stupid mistake; if he taught that those little green men were divine, like Jesus, he'd be a first-class heretic.

Anyway, that's my understanding.

[George]

Aloha MC1171611, VendettaRide, and JMWhalen,

I just wanted to give a loud "amen" to your Posts! It's great to have you "on board"! Sound doctrine is what its all about - Keep up the good work (your Posts)!