[Luke]

I have read many Lordship proponents refer to H A Ironside as being Lordship Salvation in doctrine, mainly because he wrote a book called "Except Ye Repent". I am reading it and am not finding anything lordship in it. I am finding a biblical definition of repentance - a change of mind about sin, that results in a change of life AFTER salvation.

Dr Ironside said -

"When anyone comes promising salvation to those 'who make full surrender' of all that they have to God, and who 'pay the price of full salvation' he is preaching another gospel, for the price was paid on Calvary's cross and the work that saves is finished. It was Christ Jesus who made the full surrender when He yielded His life on Calvary that saves us, not our surrender in any way to Him."

I am starting to think more and more that men like John MacArthur and Ray Comfort are not only teaching false doctrine, but are satanically inspired. JM has written a book all about the COST of SALVATION.

Jesus come quickly.

I'm going to add to this a bit

Ray Comfort has appeared on Joyce Meyer's TV show. He has also appeared at a conference with other Word Faith heretics, such as Jesse Duplantis. As far as I know, he did not openly rebuke them, but taught his method to them. Ray is dangerous ground, and I think this is one of Satan's most subtle attacks against the gospel of the GRACE of God, but the devil leaves signs because he is imperfect, and we can see his handiwork if we look.

[atlas]

Luke,

I have read many Lordship proponents refer to H A Ironside as being Lordship Salvation in doctrine, mainly because he wrote a book called "Except Ye Repent". I am reading it and am not finding anything lordship in it.

Many of the Lordship folks try to make out like H.A. Irnoside is on their side. This is not the case. Lordship salvation and repentance are not the same thing. This is the error of their way. They do not even know the difference between lordship salvation and repentance. This is how far the apostates have came. Repentance is a very simple doctrine to understand. These apostates can not even understand a very simple Bible doctrine.

I have also read the book " Except Ye Repent ". It has nothing whatsoever do with lordship salvation. Never forget as Ruckman would tell you, all apostates are liars. If anyone want this book in an ebook PDF email me and I'll send it to you. I found it somewhere on line but I have forgotten where. It's a wonderful book.


Atlas

Here is my two cents...

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation
Moderate Free grace - repentance and faith, one SHOULD product fruit after salvation
Free Grade - faith, no expectation of fruit after salvation

I have never held to Free Grace. I used to hold to Moderate Free Grace. But, I now hold to Lordship salvation as I have defined above.

Lordship Salvation tends to be the Calvinistic position while Moderate Free Grace is the non-Calvinistic position.

[Josh]

The belief that one must produce fruit to be saved is defined in the Bible as a false doctrine. It is said about he who preaches these things, "...let him be acursed.". The Bible is very clear that all that is needed for salvation was finished by Christ on Calvary. Nothing more is needed, all you must do is believe. That's it, anything more a works based salvation, and is heresy according to God Himself.

Josh...

You are mixing up justification and sanctification. Justification is what declares us to be righteous on the basis of Christ's merits and blood atonement but it does not make us righteous. After we are justified, God then begins His work of sanctification in us which begins to make us righteous. This process is completed at our glorification.

Therefore, based upon my definition of Lordship salvation:

repentance and faith = justification
produce fruit = sanctification

I contend that all those who are justified will begin the process of sanctification. This sanctification does not justify them it is merely the evidence of a person's justification.

In Christian circles when a person says they are "saved" they are refering to justification not sanctification.

[Brother Tim]

Justification is what declares us to be righteous on the basis of Christ's merits and blood atonement but it does not make us righteous. After we are justified, God then begins His work of sanctification in us which begins to make us righteous.

Please back up the two underlined portions of your statement with Scripture.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by ericwgreene

Here is my two cents...

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation
Moderate Free grace - repentance and faith, one SHOULD product fruit after salvation
Free Grade - faith, no expectation of fruit after salvation

I have never held to Free Grace. I used to hold to Moderate Free Grace. But, I now hold to Lordship salvation as I have defined above.

Lordship Salvation tends to be the Calvinistic position while Moderate Free Grace is the non-Calvinistic position.

You are only going by JM's stupid definitions. Stop defining people into little groups.

We are FREE GRACE. There is no such thing as MODERATE Free Grace. It's like saying "Inexpensive Free Grace" or "Cheap Free Grace" or "Almost Free Grace". It's a dumb title with no meaning, other than to define boundaries between Hodges Vs Macarthur.

As I said, Hodges isn't even teaching any gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-4 is the Gospel, and he thinks it is unnecessary.

So you define repentance as above.

Lordship salvation - repentance and faith, one must produce fruit after salvation

So, your doctrine is not really salvation, it's probation. One is saved "freely", but if one does not produce fruits, based on your (or Macarthurs) arbitrary guidelines, he was not really saved. This is the EXACT SAME teaching as Arminianism, with a twist

Arminians claim one can LOSE their salvation if they don't produce fruit
Calvinists claim they never had it.

Neither have eternal security.

Here is how the Mormons define repentance:

"Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and the Lord will remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins--behold, he will confess them and forsake them."

"Our Father in heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him, we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them."

"The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again"

"There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin"

Brother, it seems to me you don't even know what repentance is.

You say "Repentance and Faith - one must produce fruits after salvation" - Basically, you are saying that repentance IS fruits. Or, to put it another way, Repentance IS works.

Repentance is as Ironside puts it. It is a turning, a turning to God, and it is a forsaking, forsaking our own righteousness and looking to Christ alone for salvation. It's nothing to do with forsaking sin. It's forsaking our own righteousness. You Lordship folks have abhorrent doctrine. You think that God will accept you if you forsake your sin and come with your own righteousness. Isaiah 64:6 friend.

I know that's a blatent misrepresentation, but it's a logical conclusion.

Here is an email I sent to a person some months ago about repentance.. It addresses some but not all of the discussion here.

Returning back to the original purpose of our discussion, I believe
you were concerned with my understanding of the word "repentance". If
memory serves correct, I defined it as a "turning away from sin" and
coupled it with faith in terms of a person receiving Christ as their
Savior. Your understanding of repentance was that it was a "change of
mind about Jesus" and that the change of mind occurred when a person
placed their faith in Christ. The primary difference between our two
views being that "repentance" does not mean a "turning away from sin".

To help prove your argument you cited the last verse of Acts 3.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him
to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

If memory serves correct and I understood your position, you believe
this passage supports the belief that "turning away from sin" is an
act of God and can only occur after a person is born again.
Therefore, according to your understanding "turning away from sin"
cannot be a condition of justification as the unregenerate person can
never turn from their sins. Furthermore, to require such a condition
is to add personal works to a person's justification thereby opposing
Sola Fide. Rather, you consider a "turning away from sin" to solely
be an act of sanctification.

Here are two points I would like you to consider:

1. "having raised up his Son Jesus" - I believe this phrase is
referring to the call of the gospel. The call of the gospel is that
God raised His Son from the dead. Peter is saying that God is using
the resurrection to turn people from their iniquity. To say it
another way, God is turning them from their iniquity through the call
of the gospel.

God sent the gospel message first to the Jews which is why Peter is
preaching this message to the people from Solomon's porch in the
temple. Granted, Peter is preaching on their condemnation for the
rejection and murder of the Messiah but notice what is written in
verse 19, "that your sins may be blotted out". All of their sins will
be blotted out, not just their rejection and murder of Jesus. If
repent meant just "change your mind about Jesus" then by implication
the phrase "that your sins may be blotted out" would only refer to
their sins of rejecting and murdering Jesus.

When one defines repentance as a change of mind about Jesus we imply
that men are only condemned for their rejection of Christ. Men are
not condemned just for their rejection of Jesus; rather, men are
condemned for all of their sins against God. John 3 makes this clear
as it says that we are condemned already, even if we do not hear the
call of the gospel. If men were only condemned for the rejection of
Christ then men would not be condemned already.

Returning to the Acts passage, Peter is focusing his preaching on
their violation of the sixth commandment, the rejection and murder of
Jesus Christ. By using the Law to speak to the people's consciences,
he is preparing them for the gospel message that God raised His Son
from the dead, so that people will turn from their iniquities (in
general) and place their faith in the Savior and have their iniquities
(all of them) blotted out.

In summary, through the call of the gospel, God will turn people from
their sins. So that when people respond to the gospel call, they will
repent (turn from their sins) and place their faith in the Jesus
Christ believing the gospel.

2. A few verses before the one you cited Peter commands the following:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be
blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence
of the Lord;

Along with the passage from Mark that I referred to when we were
sitting at the table it is clear that God demands repentance. I
recognize that you do not deny the need for repentance but merely
challenge the view of it as a "turning away from sin". But I think
this passage shows us something interesting. Repent and converted are
listed separately. In order for a person to be justified they must
repent (turn from their sin) and place their faith in Jesus Christ
then they are converted (aka justified). In this passage, faith is
left out but when viewed within the entire context of Scripture,
repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin with only one side
specifically mentioned in this particular verse, yet with the whole
coin being present. When we repent (turn from our sin), we are at the
same time turning towards Jesus and placing our faith in Him.

Looking at the parable of sower... Of the four types of believers which ones were saved? I believe only the last one was saved. The true believer persisted to the end. The false believers at some point (persecution or worldly temptation) fell away.

Matthew 13:18-23Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[Luke]

So you agree with the Mormons that repentance is a turning away from or forsaking of sin. Anyone that thinks this is not really trusting Jesus Christ, because they are getting rid of what they perceive to be stopping them from getting saved. Instead of denying their own righteousness, and falling upon the mercy of God, they try to set it up, and promise a commitment of full surrender to the Lord Jesus.

Good for you. I've always noted a connection between LS and the Cults.

I'm done.