Hope you dont mind, but heres a study I have been working on as to romans 9..

The enemy of the gospel of Gods Free Sovereign Grace is under attack more than ever in this day and time we live in. The Fact that the bible teaches God is Free and Sovereign in the administration of His mercy and salvation, Is eclipsed with the man exalting concept that man has the freewill, hence man is sovereign in his own salvation being he at anytime may utilize his freewill and get saved.

But May God be true and all men liars..

One of the chapters in the bible that testifies to Gods absolute Sovereigny to save whom ever he will, and with hold Salvation from whomever He will is taught in romans 9..

The devil has been busy though in sending his servants to corrupt and change the truth into a lie..

One of the ways this is being strategically done is by men saying that romans 9 is not talking about individual salvation but corporate election only..This however is not true, and by the grace of God, I will set out to prove that yes indeed romans 9 is talking about individual salvation..

First of all the whole context of the book of romans is grounded and centered in salvation, in fact, it is the gospel of Jesus christ set forth in its theological framework. It has themes such as mans depravity and inability , unconditional election, particular atonement, effectual call, preservation of the saints , deity of christ, and the mystery of israel and the church. All of which are vital gospel truthes for the elect of God, and the salvation of their souls..

Now, the book as I said is premised on salvation as we see from perhaps the verses that so aptly lay out the theme of the book rom 1:5-17


15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is a gospel that is from God to his elect or called ones. rom 1:

6Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

rom 1:


1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Now moving right along to the 9th chapter we find the following..

vs 1-5

1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The concern here is that there apparently seemed to be something gone wrong here in that the pauls kinsmen in the flesh the physical Jew , were not for the most part expriencing salvation , and appeared to be foresaken of God , abandoned.. This caused paul apparently some sorrow of heart and heaviness.

And I see nothing wrong with wishful thinking , as it pertains to the salvation of friends and family, or those to whom God has caused us to fell close to..Paul had a natural affinity for his kinsmen in the flesh..

I dont know if this was sinful on pauls behalf or not, but in light of this it would be later that he suffered mightly from these his kinsmen..

2 cor 11:

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

Note; God will ween his children from all inordinate affection..

The reason for this is because it was suggested that paul went a little too far in saying he could wish to be accursed from christ for his brethern sake according to the flesh..and if that is what he really meant, he was definitly wrong for that thought and God chastised him good..with those very jews he had such passion for..

But getting back to the subject, the perplexity was salvation being with held from the jews or Israel according to the flesh.

It was no secret that God had singled out this nation for national prominence from what we read in vs4-5

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
It had appeared that in light of all israels past glory as Gods favoured people and the promises made to israel , that these promises have now fallen to the ground, and His covenant people set aside..

But paul sets out to resolve this issue by first stating, in vs 6:

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

He first says, all israel [ the true spiritual israel of God] is not of national israel

Paul was saying that all the salvaic[ covenant ] promises of God were not directed to Israel as a nation but to a spiritual israel within the nation. Those who are the foreknown according to Gods eternal purpose in christ..rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

So paul first dispelling of the problem is that all israel is not from your country israel..

Next he goes on to explain further his point about not the national people where the original focus, but God had an eye to a people within a people..He proves this further in vs:7-9


7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

As we know abe had two sons , one was name ishmael and the other issach..God made a choice to whom the heir of the covenant promises would be, and it was Isaach not ishmael..In fact at one point the inspired writer totally disregarded ishmael and was moved to write:

gen 22:

16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Question ? Was not ishmael abes son ?

But the point is this, that those who belong to the covenant are like isaach was children of promise..What does this mean ? It means , that those who are Gods true israel , their births are brought about by the bare promise of Gods word alone..You see issach was a promised child by God when human effort was not a option for this to be accomplished..note:

gen 18:

9And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

10And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
11Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

So in actuality it was not possible physically for sarah to have a child on her own..

But this child was to brought about my the onipotence and power of God notice vs 14 a

Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Issachs birth was by the promise of God, not human will..

So like wise is the true jew, he or she are children of promise..It was promised to christ prophetically that a seed shall serve him..

ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

cp isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

so the true israel are as Isaach recieve their spirtual birth by Gods promise, and james alludes to this in james 1:


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth[ or promise], that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God The Holy Spirit gives newbirth to the heirs of promise at his Sovereign appointed pleasure..jn 3:

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

i emphasize appointed time because this was the terminology God used to abe and sarah : gen 18:

14Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

so paul goes on to tell the galatians that true believers are appointed just as isaach was appointed..

gal 4:

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

end of part 1

[Biblestudent]

Can't find "sovereign grace" in the Bible.

Then you must still need eyes to see..grace is said to reign as a king, a sovereign..rom 5:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

The word reign in the greek is

basileuō meaning #1.to be king, to exercise kingly power, to reign

#2.to exercise the highest influence, to control

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Then you must still need eyes to see..grace is said to reign as a king, a sovereign..rom 5:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

The word reign in the greek is

basileuō meaning #1.to be king, to exercise kingly power, to reign

#2.to exercise the highest influence, to control

1. Then sin is sovereign?
2. Going to the Greek?

[Biblestudent]

Echoing Diligent, please read The Other Side of Calvinism.

Just curious: if there is no free will, why get upset over people believing they have free will? (You might need to read that twice.)

Just curoius sir, why do you believe in freewill of men, when the bible never says it ?


I

am still interested in what you "do" with:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Is this word empty, null, and void?

This verse is not stating that man has a freewill. Its speaking to a specific people with who thirst ..

You must compare scripture with scripture to get an understanding..

Those who thirst, are those who have been made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit of God , Jesus calls those who thirst, blessed..

matt 5:

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Those who will let them drink , but who are willing ? Certainly not proud self righteous people as Jesus spoke to on this occasion:

jn 5:

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

So obviously those like this group jesus is not referring to in the revealation passage, but to these , as in ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

In the day of the power of God the Holy Spirit Gods chosen people are willing people..

The apostle paul is a biblical Illustration of this blessed truth, even while he was in the heat of passion and rage against christ and His people, he was arrested by the power of Christ and became willing..moments later he referred to him [ Jesus of Nazareth] as Lord..

So frankly sir, you have not and cannot prove man has a freewill by the verse you have presented..

1. Then sin is sovereign?
2. Going to the Greek?

Yes it was, not any more if you read the passage correctly, sins sovereignty is supplanted by the reigning of grace..

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

vs 21:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

so your philosophy gives more respect to the effects of sin by adam, than the effects of grace by Jesus christ..

[Biblestudent]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Yes it was, not any more if you read the passage correctly, sins sovereignty is supplanted by the reigning of grace..

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

vs 21:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord

so your philosophy gives more respect to the effects of sin by adam, than the effects of grace by Jesus christ..

1. Sin WAS sovereign? What do you mean by that? Sin is sovereign only to the elect few, so that grace is sovereign to another elect few?
2. Sin reignED over all. Have all sinned? Sovereign grace reignS now. Are all saved?
3. Christ died for "ALL". Did Christ die only for the "elect"? "ALL" have sinned. Only the "elect" have sinned?

THE

FALSE SAVIOR:

FREE WILL



It is commonly taught that Jesus Christ gave His life for all mankind without exception. It is said that due to this, it is now POSSIBLE for every sinner to have eternal life. But the possession of this eternal life is conditioned upon the sinner deciding for Christ or accepting Christ of his own free will. According to this system of teaching, Jesus did not actually save any one when He died and rose again. He merely made salvation POSSIBLE.

Let us, however, examine this teaching. According to this system, Jesus died EQUALLY for the sinner who rejected Him as f or the sinner who accepted Him. One will, however, wind up in hell and the other in heaven. But what decides that one will end up in heaven? Is it what Jesus did for him? NO! For according to this teaching, Christ did the same for the man in hell. Therefore, the unavoidable conclusion is that the one is in heaven because of WHAT HE DID, because of his free will decision to accept Christ. Hence, the decisive factor in a man's having eternal life is his own free will. NOT JESUS CHRIST! This makes free will the actual saviour. But this is a false saviour!

First, no unsaved sinner is willing to accept Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul says that all men be they Jew or Gentile are "under sin" (Rom. 3.9). In that condition Paul further describes them: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3.10‑12). That certainly does not sound like a group of people yearning to accept Christ as their personal Saviour! According to this passage, all men do evil. "There is none that doeth good." Jesus Christ said: "Every one that doeth evil HATETH the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reprove& (John 3.20). No sinner is going to f freely accept what he hates. He does NOT come to the light!

But does not a sinner have a free will? Indeed he does! And the freedom of that will is identified in Rom. 6.20: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free FROM righteousness." The sinner's will is free FROM, not TO righteousness. Hence, any choices he makes with his will are away from righteousness rather than for righteousness. With a will that is free from righteousness, a sinner will not choose Jesus Christ, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jer. 23.6).

Secondly, Jesus did not come merely to make salvation and eternal life a possibility to be decided by the sinner's will. He came to save. Notice Mat. 1.21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he SHALL save his people from their sins." The verse says, "He SHALL save," not "try to save" or "possibly save." That expression "shall save" is just as sure of accomplishment as "she SHALL bring forth a son" or "thou SHALT call his name JESUS."

Observe that Jesus saves "his people." Jesus further identifies "his people" as "all that the Father giveth me." Note: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day" (John 6.38‑39). Mind that the Father's will is that Jesus should lose none of those given to Him. Jesus came to do that will. And He did it! In John 17.4 Jesus said, "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." Speaking of His Father Jesus said, "I do ALWAYS those things that please him" (John 8.29). Therefore, Jesus saved every soul God gave Him to save. He lost none of them. He did the Father's will!

Jesus Christ gave His life for the sheep (John 10.11). These sheep are the same as "all that the Father giveth me." Speaking of the sheep Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all" (John 10.29). The sheep do not include every human being without exception. John 10.26 says: "But ye believe not, because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP!" Thus, Christ did not give Himself for those addressed in these words. He gave Himself for the sheep, for "his people," for all that the Father gave Him. And in so doing He saved them in fulfilment of the Father's will. The sheep are designated as "God's elect in Rom. 8.33. Because of Christ's death for them, no charge can be laid against them. "They shall never perish" (John 10.28)!

Therefore, it is not the execution of the free will of the sinner that secures for him salvation and eternal life. It is rather the execution of the Father's will by Jesus Christ. Jesus ALONE is the Saviour. He BY HIMSELF purged sins (Heb. 1.3). No wonder then that when speaking of the new birth, the Bible says that men are born "NOT of blood, nor of THE WILL of the flesh, nor of THE WILL of man, BUT OF GOD' (John 1.13). No wonder then that when Paul spoke of how men are God's children, he said: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL," not "your free will," but "HIS WILL" (Eph. 1.5)!

— Pastor Ben J. Mott, Jr.

Beloved:
I agree its not by our will but God's will, if we are trusting in our own will we are trusting in the flesh.
jim

Originally Posted by grace to me

THE

FALSE SAVIOR:

FREE WILL



It is commonly taught that Jesus Christ gave His life for all mankind without exception. It is said that due to this, it is now POSSIBLE for every sinner to have eternal life. But the possession of this eternal life is conditioned upon the sinner deciding for Christ or accepting Christ of his own free will. According to this system of teaching, Jesus did not actually save any one when He died and rose again. He merely made salvation POSSIBLE.

Let us, however, examine this teaching. According to this system, Jesus died EQUALLY for the sinner who rejected Him as f or the sinner who accepted Him. One will, however, wind up in hell and the other in heaven. But what decides that one will end up in heaven? Is it what Jesus did for him? NO! For according to this teaching, Christ did the same for the man in hell. Therefore, the unavoidable conclusion is that the one is in heaven because of WHAT HE DID, because of his free will decision to accept Christ. Hence, the decisive factor in a man's having eternal life is his own free will. NOT JESUS CHRIST! This makes free will the actual saviour. But this is a false saviour!

First, no unsaved sinner is willing to accept Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul says that all men be they Jew or Gentile are "under sin" (Rom. 3.9). In that condition Paul further describes them: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3.10‑12). That certainly does not sound like a group of people yearning to accept Christ as their personal Saviour! According to this passage, all men do evil. "There is none that doeth good." Jesus Christ said: "Every one that doeth evil HATETH the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT, lest his deeds should be reprove& (John 3.20). No sinner is going to f freely accept what he hates. He does NOT come to the light!

But does not a sinner have a free will? Indeed he does! And the freedom of that will is identified in Rom. 6.20: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free FROM righteousness." The sinner's will is free FROM, not TO righteousness. Hence, any choices he makes with his will are away from righteousness rather than for righteousness. With a will that is free from righteousness, a sinner will not choose Jesus Christ, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Jer. 23.6).

Secondly, Jesus did not come merely to make salvation and eternal life a possibility to be decided by the sinner's will. He came to save. Notice Mat. 1.21: "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he SHALL save his people from their sins." The verse says, "He SHALL save," not "try to save" or "possibly save." That expression "shall save" is just as sure of accomplishment as "she SHALL bring forth a son" or "thou SHALT call his name JESUS."

Observe that Jesus saves "his people." Jesus further identifies "his people" as "all that the Father giveth me." Note: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day" (John 6.38‑39). Mind that the Father's will is that Jesus should lose none of those given to Him. Jesus came to do that will. And He did it! In John 17.4 Jesus said, "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." Speaking of His Father Jesus said, "I do ALWAYS those things that please him" (John 8.29). Therefore, Jesus saved every soul God gave Him to save. He lost none of them. He did the Father's will!

Jesus Christ gave His life for the sheep (John 10.11). These sheep are the same as "all that the Father giveth me." Speaking of the sheep Jesus said: "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all" (John 10.29). The sheep do not include every human being without exception. John 10.26 says: "But ye believe not, because YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP!" Thus, Christ did not give Himself for those addressed in these words. He gave Himself for the sheep, for "his people," for all that the Father gave Him. And in so doing He saved them in fulfilment of the Father's will. The sheep are designated as "God's elect in Rom. 8.33. Because of Christ's death for them, no charge can be laid against them. "They shall never perish" (John 10.28)!

Therefore, it is not the execution of the free will of the sinner that secures for him salvation and eternal life. It is rather the execution of the Father's will by Jesus Christ. Jesus ALONE is the Saviour. He BY HIMSELF purged sins (Heb. 1.3). No wonder then that when speaking of the new birth, the Bible says that men are born "NOT of blood, nor of THE WILL of the flesh, nor of THE WILL of man, BUT OF GOD' (John 1.13). No wonder then that when Paul spoke of how men are God's children, he said: "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of HIS WILL," not "your free will," but "HIS WILL" (Eph. 1.5)!

— Pastor Ben J. Mott, Jr.

Beloved:
I agree its not by our will but God's will, if we are trusting in our own will we are trusting in the flesh.
jim

Yes and furthermore, Jesus christ death burial, and resurrection saved all those given to him of the father.

The true gospel should announce that the election of grace or those given to christ by the father are saved..

The Holy Spirit reveals to whomever the elect are, their finished accomplished, salvation..

eph 1:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The salvation is theirs by Inheritance, before they believe it..