[Luke]

Let me ask you a question, ladies and gentlemen: Do you think Balaam was a great Christian because he could say, "I have sinned"? Do you think that it may be that one cause for Balaam's greatness was his willingness to say, "I have sinned"? Do you think that Saul became a great man because he could say, "I have sinned"? One of the reasons Job was a mature and upright man, perhaps, was that he was willing to say, "I have sinned."

This is from his sermon "I have sinned" which is quite touching in many ways, but I read this and thought..

1) Baalam wasn't a Christian, and neither was anyone else in the OT.
2) Baalam was a lost man and so was Saul??

[kevinvw]

2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Yeah, neither were Christians, and both were lost. Saul lost the Holy Spirit for being a wicked and evil king and Balaam was a baal worshipper and a fool. I wouldn't say either is a good example for a Christian, or anybody, unless you want to wind up in hell. The fact that they could admit that they sinned is good, but they were obviously lacking in the parts that really matter.

[chette777]

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

this is an interesting scripture describing Israel int he last day.
1) they have become a murder of their brother (brethren)
2) they have become sexual immoral and mixed their blood
3) they have become ones who seek after positions of Authority both religious and civil.

sorry I didn't mean to hijack your post.

[Luke]

Hijack it all you want.. I have noticed a few IFB's doing this.. calling OT saints "Christians". One of them even goes as far as saying the first Christian family was Adam and Eve.. (I think that was Jack Hyles too...)

[peopleoftheway]

1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

How strikingly similar is the story of Saul going to seek a "familiar" spirit because the Lord had not spoken to him, to that of many professed Christians today who, because they dont "feel" the presence of God they seek to "feel" through "familiar spirits" Charismatics, Pentecostal worship (sensual music, singing, lyrics) and the like and commit transgressions against the word of the Lord by adding and taking away from the Glorious Book (Modern versions, Social Gospel). Now I am not saying that pentecostals or the like are not saved I cannot judge ANYONE'S salvation, but the story is an indication of how grievous the error of seeking a familiar spirit is.


Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

(I know that Jude is comparing to Sodom and Gomorrahs transgressions)
How similar is this verse to todays so called pastors and evangelists who twist the word of God and preach a false Gospel for the sake of a few dollars, I could list many but sadly it would make this post way too long.

Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Definitely no Christians in the Old testament, saints but not Christians.

[chette777]

Jack would have been on medications to have made such a blooper as to call Adam and Eve the first Christians family. however it goes well with the theology that those in the OT were looking FORWARD to the cross.

[Just_A_Thought]

Originally Posted by Luke

Hijack it all you want.. I have noticed a few IFB's doing this.. calling OT saints "Christians". One of them even goes as far as saying the first Christian family was Adam and Eve.. (I think that was Jack Hyles too...)

I find fault with some of Bro Hyles teachings but he is probably more right on than most...

Why sit there and insult a man that served God with his life. He may not have been perfect but neither is anyone else on this forum including myself.

[peopleoftheway]

Where exactly did Brother Luke insult him? In fact he said no more about it than you, that he knew some of his teachings werent sound

[tonybones2112]

Originally Posted by Luke

Let me ask you a question, ladies and gentlemen: Do you think Balaam was a great Christian because he could say, "I have sinned"? Do you think that it may be that one cause for Balaam's greatness was his willingness to say, "I have sinned"? Do you think that Saul became a great man because he could say, "I have sinned"? One of the reasons Job was a mature and upright man, perhaps, was that he was willing to say, "I have sinned."

This is from his sermon "I have sinned" which is quite touching in many ways, but I read this and thought..

1) Baalam wasn't a Christian, and neither was anyone else in the OT.
2) Baalam was a lost man and so was Saul??

Matt 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men‘s sins: keep thyself pure.

1Th 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

Nu 32:21 And will go all of you armed over Jordan before the LORD, until he hath driven out his enemies from before him,
22 And the land be subdued before the LORD: then afterward ye shall return, and be guiltless before the LORD, and before Israel; and this land shall be your possession before the LORD.
23 But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the LORD: and be sure your sin will find you out.

Luke, the sermon Dr. Hyles preached is one of many he preached in self defense of the fact he was accused, on very good evidence, of the grossest sexual misconduct and various other acts unbecoming a man of his position. Hyles had and still does have a fanatical following as does Ruckman, and some men in high profiles do.

Brother Luke, I hope you and I are lifelong friends and Christian brothers, I want you always to remember though, I am just a man. Nothing more. I've dealt with many of Hyle's clones who swear he should have been one of the 12 Apostles. When you defend a man and don't know his guilt or innocence, or if you know one or the other, if he is guilty you become a knowing or unknowing partaker of his sins as the verse in I Tim. above points out.
The OT has many examples of living. Dr. Hyles, in my opionion, failed to drive out some of the works of the flesh found in Galatians 5, and his sins found him out as pointed out in Numbers above. If Hyles won a million to Christ he could have won 10 million had he crucified his flesh. 20 years have passed since these accusations came to light and the IFB is split right down the middle in many camps. Hyle's accusers made the silly and irrelevant mistake of accusing him among other things of "...having the Ruckman position on the KJV." Dr. Ruckman defends him because Hyle's accusers are "Alexandrians". A man's position on the version issue is not relevant to his moral standing when he has the profile Hyles did and when the alleged misdeeds are this deep. Some allegations were silly(that he prayed to his deceased mother's photo). You have to sift the wheat from the chaff in any accusation.

The information on the allegations are here:

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/

Be fully pursuaded in your own mind.

John R. Rice was the most vocal of the teachers who taught, "Abraham was a fine, Old Testament Christian...". The teaching is they "looked forward to the cross" while we "look backward". He was half right.

Judas "repented" of course, after he said, oops. Had he gone to the cross he would have been forgiven, but he has a job: He's the Anti-Christ. We can whip ourselves with chains over our sins and just get into hell with stripes on our backs. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, the OT saints did not have this gospel. Your and my sins are washed in the blood NOW, Israel's sins will be blotted out when the times of refreshing are come according to Peter in Acts 3.

As a young Christian I was a respector of persons Luke. I didn't know any better. Hyles caused a great deal of division, but unless a call divides it is not alive, but dead.

I hope you are well.

Grace and peace

Tony