[illusionznc]

I recently came across an article speaking of "three heavens/levels of heaven" and I am trying to understand its meaning. There are questions in this article with answers by various people on the subject. I am having trouble understanding why two verses seem to conflict.

Genesis 1:1

"IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the
body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to
the third heaven"

Genesis 1:1 does not refer to "heaven" in a plural sense, yet 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to a third heaven which would seem to suggest there is more than one. I am troubled by the articles claim that the KJB uses an incorrect translation in that "heaven" should be plural "heavens" in Genesis 1:1.

I personally do not believe this to be an incorrect translation, but it seemed to be a valid discussion I would very much like some input on. I'm not one to profess to know more than others about the bible, so any help or clarification you could offer would be greatly appreciated. For reference, the article is given below.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/a...of-heaven.html

[chette777]

The term third heaven is only used by Paul in 2Cor 12:2

these three heavens cannot be seen in Gen 1:1 because only one heaven existed at that time in eternity past. The other two are a result of Lucifer's fall, and God's recreating on the earth.

First, on the second day the firmament is created to contain Lucifer's sinful influence upon God's perfect heaven contained from polluting the whole of perfect heaven with darkness. It is not said to be good because anything that separates God from his creation cannot be trully good.

Then on day 4th day, inside the firmament the heaven is divided between the place where the stars will be held and one where our atmosphere will be.

As follows it is simple enough to understand that the first heaven is our atmosphere where the birds fly and the clouds cross. the second Heaven is our Universe where all the stars are said to be scattered, and is held within a container called the Firmament (some 900 billion light years across scientist tell us). And the Third Heaven is a term that represents the Abode of God beyond the firmament which is the original perfect Heaven of Gen 1:1.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

The term third heaven is only used by Paul in 2Cor 12:2

these three heavens cannot be seen in Gen 1:1 because only one heaven existed at that time in eternity past. The other two are a result of Lucifer's fall, and God's recreating on the earth.

First, on the second day the firmament is created to contain Lucifer's sinful influence upon God's perfect heaven contained from polluting the whole of perfect heaven with darkness. It is not said to be good because anything that separates God from his creation cannot be trully good.

Perhaps we should remain in the Sciptures Chette? If you are going to make blanket statments such as these you will have to back them up with a book chapter and verse to substanciate your "theory".

illusionznc, don't you believe this Gap theory nonsense for a second. If you want to know more about what these folks teach, and why it is a gross error I'd suggest you get Kent Hovind's Creation Seminar (which can be viewed here: http://drdino.com/media-categories.php?c=seminars He talks about the errors of the Gap theory in Seminar video 2 "Garden of Eden") and Weston Fields book "Unformed and Unfilled" (I am not endorsing their corrections from the Hebrew!) which can be purchased here: http://www.amazon.com/Unformed-Unfil.../dp/0890514232

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[chette777]

Vs 31 is still correct even though he didn't call day two good. the creation of the firmament was not called good for the reasons I stated. but the purpose of the firmament was a good thing. for it served the purpose of God for which he created it therefore being good.

Stephanos, please be careful. you may agree with Kent Hovind but you are learning this from a man who blatantly did not obey Scriptures and was convicted of his sin of disobedience Roms 13 he refused to submit to the governing authority by paying his taxes. god is not against that and we should pay our taxes or how else can the Ordained Govt. I often tell my people if a Christian is in disobedience in one area of Scripture how can they claim to have enlightenment form God on his word in other areas. Kent has still not repented of tax evasion. self judgement is very important and when a man refuses too the Holy ghost id greiev or eventually quenched. so don't give Kent to much credit or honor for he was a sinner who got caught and not is paying for his sin of which he still will not confess and repent. what does that tell you about a Chrisitan.

Persoally I don't agree 100 percent with Kent, nor do I agree at all with the view that allows for Evolution. I have a view as do others that incorporates a perfect heaven and earth created in Eternity past, that Lucifer brought judgement of sin upon the earth when he rebelled in eternity past. His duty may have been to build a glorious throne for The Lamb and his pride got to him and he claimed the lambs throne for himself.

Kents view on when Angels were created may not be correct and the verses he uses are out of context. We beleive in a 6 day creation event iWhere God creates the earth anew for the purpose of introducing his next major player inthe heavenlies, MAN. And we beleive the sons of God (devils on the earth) not only cohabited with women but were responsible for creating a giant races of mythologial type creatures in an attmpt to pervert Gods creation. Reptiles that live for long periods would grow very large that is scientifically true today.

So there are no gap and gap theories (more than one) you need to get more balanced on that.

I beleive the last chapters of the Bible show us the completion of Gods purpose for the Earth that was created perfect and had seen corruption by Lucifer and fallen man. God purpose was to have a place for his Son's throne for all eternity. that is the purpose of the earth. man was addded later to help be part of the service and worship of His Son on the earth and throughout heaven. the Bible teaches it from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22

[chette777]

Stephanos,

When you down play one persons view for your own (and others) you sound like an Obamaite deomcrat. you nor Kent are the final Authority,

Let Winman discover and read all the views not just Kent Hovin's and yours. not everybody holds to evolution gap theory or to the no gap theory of Hovin. there is another Gap theory your not seeing yet. so stop slamming someones view because you don't agree. give room for error's of mens works.

In order for Kent to postulate his view his must make Satan Created in the Six day creation and sinning just before Adam is created. (No Biblical proof but that is what he teaches).

The Garden of God is said to be in heaven and God created a garden on the earth east of Eden. you need to learn the difference.

I have Hovin whole set of teachings on DVD. there are planty of times he takes some scriptures out of context. So don't tell me to use only Scripture when your god Kent Hovin doesn't use them or misuses them in his teachings.

You are not balanced in understanding what Kent has taught or in the True Gap theory (where there is not evolution). I have gone through his teaching thouroughly and found some errors. so give others some credit as to doing some home work. I Test the spirits to see what so ever they teach is true. by going to the word of God as a Berean.

The Holy Ghost teaches us all things. if you see the whole purpose of the Earth from eternity past as found in Rev 22 then you can see there was a perfect earth in eternity past. just that in between Gen 1:1 eternity past to Rev 21 etrnity future, there was a whole lot of trouble goin on. so wake up and smell the coffee and get real.

[stephanos]

Originally Posted by chette777

Vs 31 is still correct even though he didn't call day two good. the creation of the firmament was not called good for the reasons I stated. but the purpose of the firmament was a good thing. for it served the purpose of God for which he created it therefore being good.

Stephanos, please be careful. you may agree with Kent Hovind but you are learning this from a man who blatantly did not obey Scriptures and was convicted of his sin of disobedience Roms 13 he refused to submit to the governing authority by paying his taxes. god is not against that and we should pay our taxes or how else can the Ordained Govt. I often tell my people if a Christian is in disobedience in one area of Scripture how can they claim to have enlightenment form God on his word in other areas. Kent has still not repented of tax evasion. self judgement is very important and when a man refuses too the Holy ghost id greiev or eventually quenched. so don't give Kent to much credit or honor for he was a sinner who got caught and not is paying for his sin of which he still will not confess and repent. what does that tell you about a Chrisitan.

Persoally I don't agree 100 percent with Kent, nor do I agree at all with the view that allows for Evolution. I have a view as do others that incorporates a perfect heaven and earth created in Eternity past, that Lucifer brought judgement of sin upon the earth when he rebelled in eternity past. His duty may have been to build a glorious throne for The Lamb and his pride got to him and he claimed the lambs throne for himself.

Kents view on when Angels were created may not be correct and the verses he uses are out of context. We beleive in a 6 day creation event iWhere God creates the earth anew for the purpose of introducing his next major player inthe heavenlies, MAN. And we beleive the sons of God (devils on the earth) not only cohabited with women but were responsible for creating a giant races of mythologial type creatures in an attmpt to pervert Gods creation. Reptiles that live for long periods would grow very large that is scientifically true today.

So there are no gap and gap theories (more than one) you need to get more balanced on that.

I beleive the last chapters of the Bible show us the completion of Gods purpose for the Earth that was created perfect and had seen corruption by Lucifer and fallen man. God purpose was to have a place for his Son's throne for all eternity. that is the purpose of the earth. man was addded later to help be part of the service and worship of His Son on the earth and throughout heaven. the Bible teaches it from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if we stay in the Scriptures on this. Your theory of a Gap is not biblical. NO ONE who reads the Bible will come to the conclusions you have. People have to be told of this "gap" to believe it. Besides, your theory places sin and death before Adam!

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12 KJV)

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:14 KJV)

There are many more issues with this theory of yours. So please refrain from making statements about things that are not in the Bible as if they are there. illusionznc is new to this stuff and doesn't need to be indoctrinated into something that is mere speculation at best and a complete heresy at worst.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

[chette777]

it is too biblical just as Biblical as Kent Hovins. you just need to study it out more.

Plus IllusionZC should be allowed to see and hear all sides of this issue not just yours and Kents. without your subjective opinion about what others believe about a Gap theory that you have not researched.

By the way is not just my Theory or a theory of mine, it is held by many professing baptist, and Evangelical Christians and it has just as much Bible backing where Bible is clear as yours and Kents. so stop making it sound Like it is a fringe movement on the right (quoting Obamaites). it is a Gap Theory that is old earth, with a young (6000 year) creation on it. no evolution of species as one group has, Lucifer was created in the beginning at the time of the original Perfect Earth not during the 6 days creation of things pertaining to God new creation Man. for they were there when it was created perfect singing for joy in Gen 1:1.

Now without (I am withholding them) giving you the addresses you search out the scriptures I am referring to and read them carefully giving heed to the wording and chronological events around the words in those verse. and you can only come to one conclusion. there was something going one before the 6 day creation events in eternity past.

the area of what Lucifer was doing on the earth in eternity past is not so clear but knowing the whole purpose was for the Lambs Throne from Eternity puts most of it in perspective. this throne on earth is God original purpose for the Earth and it is Biblical for the out working of that is found throughout scripture. As God brought man intothepicture to chose out a people to seve both inthe Temple (Israel) and in Heaven (you and I).

that would make two Gap theories (the Christians Evolutionist hold one, and I, Baptist and Evengelical hold the other) out there, plus one no gap theory (kent). we don't argue that the current creation of earth is not young. We hold that the earthis older, and the 6day creation of the current state was done after Lucifers fall and Gods judgement onthe earth. that's why the earth was covered with water in Gen one verse two. two scriptures concernig the flood one refers to the judgement of the men at Noahs flood and the other to Lucifer's judgemntal flood.

[Winman]

First of all, I have been a student of Evolution for over 40 years, I am not new to this subject whatsoever. I do not believe in the Gap Theory, I believe the very simple and straightforward 6 days creation account in Genesis.

Genesis 2:1 is a continuation of Chapter 1 as indicated by the word "Thus".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And "and all the host of them" to me, says that the angels including Satan were included in the 6 day creation.

So I believe Satan fell sometime later. But Satan was still perfect on the 6th day.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So, before Satan rebelled against God, he was perfect. So God could call his entire 6 day creation VERY GOOD.

As to the dinosaurs and such, I believe they lived with man. There has been much evidence for this, including recent discoveries of dino's with soft tissue. I also believe the dino's survived after Noah's time and this accounts for the many stories of dragons from many various civilizations across the centuries.

I do believe the early dinos may have been much larger, living many hundreds of years as the did the early patriarchs. Dinos after Noah's time may have progressively grown smaller as their lifespans shortened. And I think man himself killed off most of the dinos. Almost all stories of dragons tell of brave knights who went out to kill these dangerous monsters. Now, we have been taught from an early age that these stories were just myths, but men just a few hundred years ago took them quite seriously. That is the evolutionists who want you to believe the world is billions of years old and that the dinos lived over 75 million years ago, well before man (in their theory).

I happen to like Kent Hovind and have spent many hours watching his videos. I think he is a fantastic teacher and debater. I love the fact that he has taught and debated at universities across the nation. It is good to see young people who have been indoctrinated with the poison and lies of evolution see the truth of the Bible.

And you can bet he made lots of enemies in the secular educational establishment. I promise you, this had much to do with his legal problems. There were many folks in high places out to get him.

Now, I don't know about his tax problems personally, I doubt many really know. But the government is not supposed to tax the church, and I am sure this is where his problems probably arose. He probably felt he was not legally obligated to pay many of these taxes. And he could be correct. But there were very important people out to get him.

I would say to you that you should reexamine this Gap theory. It is not needed. The creation account is very straightforward and easy to understand. There is no Gap mentioned. The folks that believe in the Gap are falling for the false lie of evolution that the world is very old. So, they have to find a place to put these billions of supposed years of evolution.

But evolution is 100% false. The world is young.

[Kiwi Christian]

Originally Posted by illusionznc

2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the
body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to
the third heaven"

Genesis 1:1 does not refer to "heaven" in a plural sense, yet 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to a third heaven which would seem to suggest there is more than one.

2 Cori 12:2 more than "seems to suggest" more than one heaven, it states it to be. You can believe it, it is the main proof text for the teaching of 3 heavens.

This is how I was taught to remember the difference between the heavens:

The 1st heaven is where the birds fly.
2 Samuel 21:10 ¶And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

The 2nd heaven is where the astronauts fly.
Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

The 3rd heaven is where the angels fly.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So from now on when you read "heaven" in your Bible, you know it's not always a reference to where God's throne is!

[illusionznc]

Thank you for the replies! It has helped me understand it perfectly clear & reinforced that there is no error. I think last night when I had come across that article, satan used the opportunity to try & confuse me & cast doubt into me. But like a little coal that was burning weak, I returned to the fire & support of my fellow christians. And once again, satan flees as confusion is removed! Thanks so much! It is a blessing to be a part of a wonderful support group! Much love & peace in Christ! Amen.