[George]

Originally Posted by Diligent

I think this is the first time I've seen someone argue that Romans 22 means we have to abstain from everything, everywhere, that might offend someone. Do you eat beef? Are you aware of how many billions of people find that offensive? -- and I'm not talking about vegetarians. Suddenly, you've turned a passage that tells us to consider the weaker brethren among us when we do things around them into a passage that puts us into bondage to any and all "dos and don'ts" religions.

Aloha Brandon,

BC is intent on "changing", "adding", and "subtracting" from the Scriptures whenever he comes to a place in them that he cannot "rightly divide", and so he "HARMONIZES" them to fit his "preconception of what they (the Scriptures) should "mean" (according to his limited discernment and understanding) and not what they clearly say..

He is a teetotaler (and so am I - and you) - and so every one else MUST be like him, regardless of what the Scriptures may say. Notice his "private interpretation in his recent statement:

"That being the case, since Proverbs 23 gives a clear command to abstain, Romans 14 must agree with that."

Here we have a clear example of someone ADDING TO the Holy words of God! Take the word "abstain" and look it up in SwordSearcher and see if you can find it (even once) in the Book of Proverbs. I can tell you already what I found: The word "ABSTAIN" IS NOT USED ONCE, IN THE ENTIRE BOOK OF PROVERBS!

Read the entire Chapter of Proverbs 23 - No where's in the entire Chapter is there a clear "command" to "abstain" (Notice BC wasn't "specific" - Which verse or verses? Why not QUOTE them?).

Now, do you think (for a moment) that BC is going to "apologize" to us for ADDING to God's word? Do you think (for a moment) that he is going to "apologize" to God for ADDING to His Holy word? Do you think that BC will repent of adding to; subtracting from; or twisting and wresting God's word to make it "fit" his private interpretations?

It's a waste of time dealing with a Sophist! Once I discern that a man (or woman) is a Sophist - I leave off dealing with them, for there is "no profit" in it. [Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.]

BC has a strong conviction about the use of "alcoholic beverages" - good for him (and so do you and I, and I believe Chette also), but what BC can not do is: he cannot hold that conviction without "shoving it down" other Christians throats! And therein lies a "problem" with many Christians today - once they come to a conviction about some "thing", every one else MUST believe and accept that conviction. And if not, they get upset, and start throwing a "tantrum" - slinging false accusations, malicious suppositions, and divisive comments, without any thought for those young Christians that are here on the Forum - wondering: What in the world is going on?

What is going on is, a carnal Christian ["For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" 1 Corinthians 3:3] is trying to "force" every one to believe what he believes; and if they don't, he is going to make sure that we all know how "godly" he is for observing and holding to his "convictions", and how all of us who may disagree with him are not only terribly wrong, but are actually "advocating" that it's OK for Christians to drink and/or get drunk. Which is something none of us has said or even intimated!

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

For those who may be interested the following verses are all of the verses in Proverbs 23 pertaining to wine (alcoholic) and the drinking thereof:

Proverbs 23:19 Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:
21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

{The verses are clearly talking about EXCESS - NOT "a clear command to abstain". BC is twisting the word of God out of context and is guilty of adding to it!}

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

{"tarry long at the wine" - is clearly in reference to EXCESS, NOT "a clear command to abstain". Now if BC said we shouldn't "mix" alcoholic "beverages", he would at least have a leg to stand on. }

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

{Where is the reference to "a clear command to abstain"? In the context it is (again) talking about "EXCESS"! It's in reference to a "drunkard" (P.C. = "Alcoholic") who is "hooked on booze"; who refuses to set his heart on stopping the "excess"; and who will: "seek it yet again"! - Or as psychobabble teaches: "I just can't help myself"!) }

I am a "teetotaler". I have not been drunk since 1958 (the year I got saved). I have not had a drink of any kind of alcohol since 1963 {when I embraced a personal conviction about the use of alcohol}. I do not drink any kind of alcohol for all of the reasons listed in the Bible about "excess"; but, I have even a stronger reason for not "imbibing" - and that is, I don't want to cause any brother (or sister) in Christ to "stumble" at my liberty".

On the other hand, I am not going to berate, or browbeat, or "condemn", a fellow Christian brother (or sister), if they were to have a glass of wine with their meals (as they do in much of Europe, South America, etc.) - {where it may not be safe to drink the water}. If they take it to "excess", then that's another matter altogether!

It's amazing, to me, the lengths that some Christians will go to, to try to force other Christians to believe and observe their "personal convictions" and "private interpretations"; and on the other hand have no fear, when it comes to adding to; subtracting from; or twisting and wresting the words of God out of context!

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Whenever I encounter someone who causes "divisions" and "offenses": I withdraw myself from them - Pronto! That's what I have done, since I joined this Forum, and that is what I will continue to do until I die, or until my Lord returns.