Quote:
Originally Posted by grace to me
Forrest I don't have the time to deal wit all your objections so I'll just answer what I have time to ,
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Sorry I hit the wrong button , What about the every man in Heb.2:9 ? Where we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor ;
that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man . Well what do you do with that ? Go back to Gen. 7:21 , talking about Noah's flood , And
all flesh died that moved upon the earth , both of fowl , and of cattle , and of beast , and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth , and every man. Now , Did every man without exception die in the flood ? No , There were 8 that didn't , So again ,
Every man can have limitations to it ,
And thats exactly the case in Heb.2 because if you just keep reading in HEB.2 He will identify the every man for whom he tasted death , But we see Jesus who is made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death , crowned with glory and honor , that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man .
For [
see he keeps the thought going , he' not done yet , he's going to identify the every man he tasted death for ] For it became him , for whom are all things , and by whom are all things , in bringing
many sons unto glory ,
[
The every man are the many sons ] To make the captain of
their salvation [
their -- the salvation of the many sons ] perfect through sufferings . For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified [
so the every man are the many sons that are sanctified ] are all of one : for which cause he is not ashamed to call them
brethren, [
the every man are the many sons who are the sanctified who are the brethren ] Saying , I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will i sing praise unto thee . And again , I will put my trust in him , And again ,
behold I and the children which God hath given me . [
thats the every man , its the children that God had given him to save , which links it up with John 17:2 where Jesus said , the Father gave him power over all flesh ,
that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him . Which links up with John 6:38 that says , For i came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me .
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me , that of
all [ All , this will identify the all men whom God will have to be saved ]
which he hath given me i should lose nothing , but should raise it up again at the last day .
There it is , The every man of Heb. 2:9 has been identified in the chapter as being the many sons , the sanctified , the brethren , And the children which God had given to him , The context makes it very clear . Do you see how the every man is identified right in the context of the verse ? next i'll deal with 1 tim.2:3-6 Where its speaking of God , It says :
Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men , the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time . So what about this , God will have
all men to be saved ? Well , There is one way we can argue that and that is ,
if the all men in that verse is referring to every man without exception , And God will have all men to be saved , And God's will will be done , Then nobody will be lost . Well we know the Bible doesn't teach that , So right off the bat
from that angle we have indication of a limitation in the passage . Most people would look at that and say God is willing for them to be saved , But he won't make them to be saved , They have to do something , They have to cooperate , And thats the way they try to wiggle around that , And that can be countered by simply pointing out the fact that man is unable and unwilling to respond to God by going to the verses that deal with mans total depravity , There is none that understandeth , There is none that seeketh after God -Rom.3:9-11 , Then 1 Cor. 2:14 The natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God : For they are foolishness unto him : neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned . Or the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; 1 Cor. 1:18. Thats just giving a small sampling of the many verses we could go to show that man is neither able or willing to respond to God in a positive way , And so , If this idea of God willing all men to be saved is that God wants it but they have to do something , That is countered by the fact that they are unwilling to do . So anyway God will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth . First of all let's just deal with that all men ,
Just because you see that word all men , that doesn't nessasarily prove that thats all men without exception , It could be that but it is not nessesraily that , Because we have cases where the word all is used where there are obvious exceptions to the all under consideration. The first example of this is in Gen. 7:21 And this is talking about in the days of the flood and it says ; And
all flesh died that moved upon the earth , both of fowl , and of cattle , and of beast , and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth ,
and every man: Now i want to ask you a question ,
Did all flesh without exception die in the flood ? No , There was a bunch of flesh that didn't die in that flood , There was alot of flesh on that ark , There was Noah and his wife , his 3 sons and there wives , And there was two and two of every animal , And seven of the clean beasts , They didn't die , So this is a case where the word all obviously is limited by the context , There are exceptions , And the same can be argued fom 1 Tim. 2:4-6 , The context also limits the all men , I'll show you where the context is limiting the all men. 1 Tim.2:4-6 , Who will have all men to be saved , and come to the knowledge of the truth .
For [ now thats going to be our clue as to who the all men are that God will have to be saved , For , See its connecting what is said in verse 5 with the previous verse ] For there is one God , and
one mediator between God and men , The man Christ Jesus. So God will have all men to be saved for there is one mediator between God and man , the man Christ Jesus . Now
find out for whom Jesus Christ is a mediator and you will have found the all men that God will have to be saved . Because he put forth Christ to be a mediator because he wanted to save these men, See the connection of thought ? Thats the whole reason we have a mediator , Is because God wills for all men to be saved .
So find out for whom he is a mediator then you will have found out who the all men are , And thats very easy to answer by going over to Heb. 9:15 , And for this cause he [ That is Jesus Christ ] is the mediator of the new testament , that by means of death , for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament ,
They that are called might recieve the promise of eternal inheritance.
Observe that he is a mediator for the benefit of those which are called , Now ,
Who are the called ? That's answered very clearly for us in Rom. 8:30 Moreover
whom he did predestinate them he also called :
So the called , are the predestinated , who are the elect . God would have all men to be saved ,
For that reason he sets forth Christ to be a mediator , Who is a mediator for those that are called , who are predestinated , who are the elect , so we've tracked down the all men . Now , Lets look at that from another angle , While we are looking at that all men , Sometimes these expressions of all , Refer to all in a specific context , Or a specific consideration as opposed to all without exception , Ceasar Augustus issued a decree that
all the world should be taxed , And yet thats not talking about all mankind without exception , It was talking about the Roman world , The world that was under his jurisdiction , So there's a good usage of the word all , Thats all of what he's talking about in a given context as opposed to all without exception . Did you ever travel by train ? You here the conductor say all aboard , Does he mean everybody at the train station or everybody who's got a ticket ? We ourselves constantly use that term to refer to limited groups of people , Limited by the context of consideration . Another good verse would be in John 3:26 Where there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifing , And they came unto John , and he said unto him , Rabbi , he that was with thee beyond Jordan , to whom thou barest witness , behold , the same baptizeth , and
all men come to him . Now ,
Was that all men without exception ? Did you come to Jesus at that time ? See ,
Its obviously the all men in that particular historical setting to which he is referring , Now the question might be asked , Why would God say all men ? Why didn't he just say he would have all of the elect to be saved ? Why would he say all men ? Well , There is an answer to that , That is this book has traps in it and if you don't approach this book on its terms , And you don't study it like God told you to study it , Like for example comparing spiritual things with spiritual which is what im doing with that all men passage , Im comparing it with other verses to get the scope of it , If your unwilling to do that , Your not going to understand it , This book was written for people who approach it on God's terms , And if you don't approach it on God's terms your not going to understand it , And it was written on purpose like that . But , When we talk about all men , When we use that kind of expression there are two different ways logicly that can be applied , You can mean all collectively or all distributively , Now if i use the word all collectively , Im referring to all of whatever im talking about without exception , But if i use the word all distributively , I mean some of all sorts or all without distinction . Now let me show you what i mean . Eph . 3:8-9 Where Paul was writing about his ministry . Unto me , who am less than the least of all saints , is this grace given , that i should preach amoung the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ ; And to
make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God , who created all things by Jesus Christ . Now when Paul says that he was given this grace to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery ,
He doesn't mean all men without exception , Because we know that all men without exception don't see the mystery , among the mass of all men collectively are multitudes who will not , And , Yes who cannot see the gospel . Let me give you a couple of verses that show that there are people that will not and cannot see the gospel , For example in 2 Cor.4:3-4 But If our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost : In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not , lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ , who is the image of God , should shine unto them . So here are people that don't see it because their minds are blinded , and when you are blind you can't see , and then of course i already quoted 1 Cor. 2:14 Where Paul says
the natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them , he cannot know them for they are spiritualy discerned , It is all men distributively , that is all men without distinction or all kinds of men , to make all kinds of men see , and we use the word all like that , For example , I might say my father ate all foods , My father loves all things , Talking about food , I don't mean everything without exception , You understand me when i say that , He likes , Or eats all kinds of food . Eph. 3:9 Paul was saying , to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery , and
Paul didn't make every man without exception see it , But he made all kinds of men see it , all kinds of people responded to Paul's preaching .And even in the Bible it shows very clearly that Paul's ministry was effectual in the conversion , Not of all men collectively , But of all kinds of men . Let me give you a couple examples of that Rom. 1:14-15 Paul says , I am a debtor both to the Greeks , and to the barbarians ; both to the wise and the unwise . So , as much as in me is , I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are in Rome also . Don't you
see how his ministry was geared toward all kinds of men ? Greeks , barbarians , wise , unwise and those at Rome as well , Or another good example would be 1 Cor . 9:19 So when we talk about making all men see , We are talking about all kinds of men , This is using the word distributively , Again we do the same thing , I'll give you some more biblical examples of this , How we use the word all in the distributive sense as opposed to a collective sense , Paul says , For though i be free from all men , yet have i made myself servant unto all, that i might gain the more . And unto the
Jews [ thats one kind of man ] i became a Jew , that i might gain the Jews ; to them that are under the law , as under the law , that i might gain them that are under the law ;
To them that are without law , as without law , ( being not without law law to God , but under the law to Christ ,) that i might gain them that are without law .
To the weak became i as weak , that i might gain the weak : I am made all things to all men ,
Don't you see he doesn't mean all men without exception ? , he's meaning all men without distinction , made all things for all kinds of men and he just gave you examples of different kinds .
The point is that his ministry was geared toward all kinds of men and he's using that word all men in a distributive sense instead of a collective sense , And the Bible does that in other places , For example Rom. 14:2 Paul writes here , For one believeth that he may eat all things : another , who is weak , eateth herbs . Now is paul saying here that one person believes he can eat all things without exception ? All things without exception is rediculous , nobody can eat
all things without exception , I don't care how big you are , its obviously all things without distinction . It's some of all sorts of food without distinction . Then go to Acts 2:16 and this one even clearly illustrates this , To show you that it is talking about all kinds of , As opposed to all without exception , So when you are talking about useing the word all
collectively - you mean all without exception ,
when you are using the word all distributively you mean all without distinction that is , some of all kinds . And when Paul says he was made all things to all men , It's obvious there was an exception to that , He wasn't made a drunk to the drunkards , A thief to the theives , A sodomite to the sodomites , Obviously there was an exception , This is a clear cut case where the word all , Means all in a given context of consideration as opposed to all without exception . Acts 2:16-18 Here is the day of pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out and it says , This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days , saith God ,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh ,
Now on the day of pentecost was the Holy Spirit poured out upon all flesh without exception ? No , But yet it says it was upon all flesh , Well what he is meaning here is not all flesh without exception but all flesh without distinction , Then he gives examples . And your sons and daughters shall prophesy , And your young men shall see visions , And your old men shall dream dreams ; See ,
Notice young and old , sons and daughters , different kinds of flesh , So , Do you see the point ? So when Paul says he will have all men to be saved he's not meaning all men without exception , But all men without distinction , In other words , All kinds of men . And if you look at the context of Pauls statement , Go back to 1 Tim. 2:1-3 you'll see the point , Notice verses 1-3 leading up to verse 4 , I exhort therefore that, First of all, supplications , prayers , intercessions , and giving of thanks , be made for all men , Then notice how he talks about different kinds .
For kings , and
all that are in authourity ; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty . [B]Notice how he says pray for all men , then he brakes it down into a certain kind of men [/B
], kings and all that are in authourity , And then he goes on to say , For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ;
Who will have all men to be saved , and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
So even there you are getting the idea of all kinds of men as opposed to all men without exception .