AV1611 Bible Forum Archive - Heresies & Hereticks

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Heresies & Hereticks

HERESY & HERETICKS

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Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

This is the first time the word “heresy” shows up in the Bible and is the only verse that gives the Scriptural “meaning” (definition) of the word.

According to the Bible:

HERESY=A belief in a “way” (a doctrine) that is contrary to the “fundamental” beliefs or traditions of a religion. Scriptural or Biblical HERESY = A belief (a “way” or doctrine) that is contrary to a major doctrine contained within the Holy Scriptures and clearly understood and accepted by genuine Bible believers.

WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY:

HER'ESY, n. Gr. to take, to hold; L. haeresis.
1. A fundamental error in religion, or an error of opinion respecting some fundamental doctrine of religion. But in countries where there is an established church, an opinion is deemed heresy, when it differs from that of the church. The Scriptures being the standard of faith, any opinion that is repugnant to its doctrines, is heresy; but as men differ in the interpretation of Scripture, an opinion deemed heretical by one body of christians,may be deemed orthodox by another. In Scripture and primitive usage,heresy meant merely sect, party, or the doctrines of a sect, as we now use denomination or persuasion, implying no reproach.
2. Heresy, in law, is an offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintained.
3. An untenable or unsound opinion or doctrine in politics.

In this particular case Webster “got it right”!

The Holy Scriptures equal The Truth; The Whole Truth; and Nothing But The Truth; and ANY “way”, belief, or doctrine that is contrary to The Truth equals HERESY. There are no exceptions – regardless of anyone’s “opinion” to the contrary (lost or saved)!

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1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

This verse [1 Corinthians 11:19] tells us why God allows heresies to crop up and the purpose that heresies serve: There “MUST” be heresies in order for Christians to discern “truth” from “error” (false doctrine); and to identify those Christians who are “approved” of God, from those who are NOT “approved” of God. Heresies “make manifest” (reveal) to the body of Christ those Christians who are genuine Bible believers and those who only give “lip service” to the Bible, but who are in truth Bible professing “Pretenders”.

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Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The previous verses demonstrate (unequivocally) the importance that God has placed on heresies; and just how perverse, corrupt, and evil they truly are. {Heresy is NOT just: a “little mistake”, or a “slight error”, or “a mistaken “opinion”, or “unbiblical teaching” or “problem causing”, or “an irrelevant issue”, or “likely illegal”, or “honest and sincere human error”, or “a tiny portion”, or “a misinterpretation of the Scriptures”, or just “wrong doctrine”, or “a doctrine that is way off-base”, or “simply . . . a single doctrine that is scripturally wrong”, or “just a little limb on the tree”! Heresy is an abomination to God and in God’s view, it is right up there along with adultery, fornication, hatred, drunkenness, idolatry, murder, etc., etc.} Heresy cannot be dismissed as being irrelevant or not important enough to warrant following the Scriptural commands concerning it, just because “good” and “godly” men promote it! {Do we attribute the titles: “good” and “godly” to Christians who commit adultery, fornication, drunkenness, or murder? I trow not! Then why do we commend men who commit heresy?}

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2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

And here in this verse of Scripture we have the words that God caused the apostle Peter to write about “heresies”. Oops, I goofed, He actually called them: “DAMNABLE heresies”! Not very PC of Peter to say such a thing, unless – UNLESS GOD VIEWS HERESY (ANY HERESY) as being DAMNABLE! {*NOT - some of the terms or the many excuses that Christians dream up in order to make the word of God of non effect.} *See some of these terms above.

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Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Now we come to the question: What makes a man a Heretick? And Who qualifies to be called a Heretick? Anyone who believes in, or has embraced, or is following a “way” (a false doctrine) that is contrary to sound Biblical Doctrine is a Heretic (regardless of WHO he is, or WHAT he has done!)! I must amend a prior statement I made in a former Post: I said a heretick is someone who TEACHES false doctrine. To be scripturally accurate - a heretic is not always a “FALSE TEACHER” (he may keep his “heresy” to himself). Perhaps in a later Post I will have something to say about “False Teachers” and “False Teachings”; suffice it to say for now, most Hereticks are “False Teachers”; while “False Teachers” are always Hereticks! What I have the hardest time understanding is why a born again child of God has so little fear of God in regards to trying to be as doctrinally PURE as possible. Is there no fear of God with these men - who have the audacity to ADD to, or SUBTRACT from, or CHANGE God’s Holy words to promote their “False Teachings (Doctrines). Is their conscience “seared” or has it become so “defiled” that it is practically inoperable? The following verses emphasize for the genuine Bible believer the paramount importance of embracing and teaching pure doctrine that is sound, uncorrupt, and faithful to God’s word.

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1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Those of us who have been called of God to teach and preach the word are COMMANDED to: “teach no other doctrine”.

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1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith havemadeshipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Please notice that Paul didn’t hesitate to name names when it came to those men (hereticks) who were “shipwrecking” some of the brethren’s “faith”. {Heresies have serious destructive effects – they are not “harmless”, as some would have you believe.}

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1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

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1 Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Notice the emphasis on “doctrine”? We are to “give attendance” to, and take heed “unto the doctrine” - Not corrupt it with false teaching and private interpretations!.

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1 Timothy 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Notice the emphasis that God puts on those men who “labor” in the word and doctrine? Instead of those who pervert sound doctrine.

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1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

We are to teach “wholesome words” that reflect sound doctrine. Not teach False Doctrine to draw away disciples after ourselves.

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1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

We are to “Hold fast the form of sound words”. NOT ignore sound words to promote perverse words and corrupt doctrine. Notice again how Paul doesn’t hesitate to identify those men (hereticks) that were perverting God’s words - Unlike the PC Christians of today.

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2 Timothy 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And theirword will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Please notice how Paul (once again) identifies those men who’s “word will eat as doth a canker”. Once again dispelling the reluctance on the part of many Christians today to confront hereticks, and REJECT them as the Holy Scriptures command us to! False Doctrine is destructive and can “eat as doth a canker” and possibly “overthrow the faith of some” – It is NOT HARMLESS (as claimed by some Christians today)!

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2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I wonder what “time” the Scriptures are referring to here? It couldn’t possibly here and now – could it? Or is this what is going on throughout the so-called “Fundamentalist” & “Evangelical” churches of today? Hmmm?

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2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

Once again Paul identifies a man who “greatly withstood our (Paul’s) WORDS”. The man was a “heretick” and Paul didn’t hesitate to name him for all to see, and as a warning to all. Quite a difference from the PC Christians of today – wouldn’t you say?

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Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

We are to “hold fast the faithful word” – NOT subvert it with some “False Teaching”. We are to be “sound” in doctrine – NOT insist on teaching “a Pet Doctrine” and undermine the faith of the brethren with “False Doctrine”.

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Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

We are to speak “sound doctrine” – NOT corrupt doctrine!

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Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

Our doctrine is to be uncorrupt – NOT so leavened with lies and half-truths as to deceive the brethren. Our speech must be “sound” – NOT so perverse as to cause the brethren to stumble.

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Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

There are times when warnings, admonishments, and reproofs are not enough. there are those who need to be rebuked, and we had better not be so PC as to be afraid of speaking plainly and rebuking those (hereticks) that are undermining the faith of many.

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Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

A man that is a heretick MUST BE REJECTED for he is “subverted”, and he will seek to “subvert” all those around him, if he’s given the chance! {There are no IFS’, ANDS’ or BUTS’ about this matter. Failure to obey the Scriptures in this matter can only lead to eventual Apostasy!}

SUBVERT

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Lamentations 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

DOCTRINE

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Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Job 11:4 For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Isaiah 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Matthew 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 22:33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mark 1:22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27 And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

Mark 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

Luke 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 18:19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart thatform of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold thedoctrineofBalaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold thedoctrineoftheNicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

LEAVEN

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Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with oldleaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9 A littleleaven leaveneth the whole lump.

I ask all who read this Post to consider:

Is there such a thing as harmless “leaven”?

Is “leaven” ever portrayed in the Bible as being “good” – when it comes to doctrine?

Is a man who has embraced a false and pernicious doctrine a heretic?

Is a man who teaches a false doctrine a False Teacher?

If a man is guilty of teaching heresy does he get “a pass” (from God) just because he has done a “work” for God?

If a man is guilty of teaching heresy are we Christians supposed to ignore his “False Teachings” and continue to recommend him because he has done a “work” for God?

When we “search the Scriptures” we find a totally different “take” on heresy and hereticks than what is being urged by many Christians today. Whether they oppose the clear Bible teaching about these things (Including False Teachers, False Teaching, and False Doctrine) because of ignorance or whether through obstinacy, we are to ignore all of their “advise” and private “opinions” and obey God rather than men.

In the end, we are answerable to God – and God only, and someday we shall see who will be “approved” and who will NOT!

Good to have you back, dear brother. As usual, you have provided another thorough and sound Biblical account for another important, and very relevant doctrine. A Biblical teaching all should prayerfully consider and earnestly heed.

This verse came to my mind.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Could the habitual and blind heretick actually be lost. Why do people reject plain, simple, straight truth in the word of God? Why do men, after reasonable and sound Biblical persuasion refuse to submit to the truth? It's more than a proud heart. It's a mind that has the inability to be "spiritual."

1 Corinthians

2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

If you have a difficult time understanding the word of God, if the Holy Spirit is not teaching you through the word, if you ignore and debate the sound teaching by many on this Forum who are in unity and agreement, I counsel you to:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

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1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Thank you brother George for putting that together in a logical and easy to follow lesson. I feel overwhelmingly blessed for the "love the Father has bestowed upon us".

Your insight makes answering those questions very thought provoking. HERESY, and those who teach it, HERETICKS I think are lacking the last part of John's verse, "because it (the world) knew him not".

Yes, thought provoking indeed!

I was thinking of really looking up from the Bible what "heresy" or "heretic" really means, and here comes a great post that saved me from a lot of "research time".:D

Thank you, Brother George! Glad you're back now.

I have two concerns/questions about the original post:

1. Who gets to authoritatively decide what is "sound Biblical Doctrine"?

2. Isn't the implication of the original post that if two Christians are not in 100% agreement with each other doctrinally AND they are not in 100% agreement with sound Biblical doctrine (i.e. rather than just what they may mistakenly think sound Biblical doctrine is), isn't at least one of them a "heretick"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12895)

I have two concerns/questions about the original post:

1. Who gets to authoritatively decide what is "sound Biblical Doctrine"?

God, in His word, the Bible, backed by the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

2. Isn't the implication of the original post that if two Christians are not in 100% agreement with each other doctrinally AND they are not in 100% agreement with sound Biblical doctrine (i.e. rather than just what they may mistakenly think sound Biblical doctrine is), isn't at least one of them a "heretick"?

"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." (Matthew 23:24)

If you have discernment, and study, and search the Scriptures, then by the teaching of God, you will understand the difference between sound and other doctrine. ""But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

But without trusting in God and the infallibility of His word, you will be anchorless, adrift, in a sea of conflicting ideas proposed by men.

Historically, one could say that a heresy is something that if believed will keep a man out of the Kingdom. And that is how you would distinguish it from a false teaching, which wouldn't reach that level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 12898)

God, in His word, the Bible, backed by the Holy Spirit.

"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." (Matthew 23:24)

If you have discernment, and study, and search the Scriptures, then by the teaching of God, you will understand the difference between sound and other doctrine. ""But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27)

But without trusting in God and the infallibility of His word, you will be anchorless, adrift, in a sea of conflicting ideas proposed by men.

Amen !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12895)

Brian, I'm really attempting to discover what you are thinking.

Simple questions. Do you have a single resource for authoritative, sound, Biblical doctrine? Yes or no.

If yes, what is it?

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12895)

BrianT,

This is the first & last time I will address you, since I found out long ago that it is useless (and a waste of my time) to deal with sophists. :eek:

Sophists are:
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge ofthe truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist thetruth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

#1. I am told (in the King James Bible) to: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15] So I study God's Holy word {The King James Bible = Scripture = God's preserved words} and seek the Holy Spirit's guidance for knowledge, discernment and understanding of those Scriptures in determining what is TRUTH. [John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.]

Do I know all Biblical "Truth" - of course not! However, over the course of the last 50 years - through my studies, and as I have "searched the Scriptures" (which I have in a Book) to see if "whether those things were so", I receive light and confirmation from The Spirit, Who lives within me, "whether those things were so".

So - "Who gets to authoritatively decide what is "sound Biblical Doctrine?" Ultimately I do, since if I don't, someone else is going to decide for me (that's the whole purpose of "studying" the word of God and seeking God's "approval" for "rightly dividing" His word.).

But I don't do these things in a vacuum or on my own, and I don't depend on "schooling"; or professional "scribes" & "scholars"; or even my own intellect. I seek out God's mind on all the issues of life (through His Holy Scriptures - which I have in my hands) and believe what is written in the Bible and act on those things that I learn from it.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The people in the Lord Jesus Christ's time were amazed by His miracles, but they were also astonished because: "He taught them as one having AUTHORITY, and NOT as the scribes"!) My FINAL AUTHORITY (in all matters of faith and practice) is the King James Bible, and as such I am answerable to God as to whether I rightly divided the word of truth or not.

I have no "authority" over you or any other Christian (except for my wife), and I cannot "dictate" to you (or any other Christian) what to believe. I can only preach and teach the word of God and let the Holy Spirit do the convincing and convicting.

If I am wrong on a particular doctrine God will not "approve" of my teaching. That is why I am circumspect and extremely cautious about what I teach as doctrine, and hardly ever venture out into "speculation".

Your second point is specious (Sophistical) and I will not bother answering it since it is just a clever subterfuge for more "debate", "profane babblings", and "vain jangling", and instead of edifying the brethren it is contrary to "sound speech" and "wholesome words".

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 12906)

The people in the Lord Jesus Christ's time were amazed by His miracles, but they were also astonished because: "He taught them as one having AUTHORITY, and NOT as the scribes"!)

Good point Brother George. It makes me follow this line of Biblical truth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Any true believer knows the Word is Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We have the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the WORD, and therefore, have an understanding. The WORD is in us!

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Jesus is the incarnate WORD.
Jesus has all authority.
Jesus lives in me.
Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The believer has authority as a result of knowing the WORD!

He bears witness with my spirit through the written word through the King James Bible. I asked my 70 year old mother yesterday, "Mom, how do you know the King James Bible is the preserved written word of God?" She replied, "It speaks to me like no other book or version." Simple answer of childlike faith, wouldn't you say?

Hi Forrest,

Quote:

Brian, I'm really attempting to discover what you are thinking.

I am trying to determine the logical conclusions of the original post.

Quote:

Simple questions. Do you have a single resource for authoritative, sound, Biblical doctrine? Yes or no.

Already asked and answered, and discussed ad nauseum, in the other thread. Let's keep this thread on topic.

George said:

Quote:

I am answerable to God as to whether I rightly divided the word of truth or not...If I am wrong on a particular doctrine God will not "approve" of my teaching.

When you are wrong, even though you were well intentioned and though you were guided by the Holy Spirit to a particular conclusion, are you a "heretick"?

Quote:

Your second point is specious

I disagree. If two people, reading the same King James Bible and both believing the Holy Spirit lead them into all truth, arrive at different conclusions about pretrib/posttrib, eternal security, Trinity, validity of tongues today, women deacons, head-coverings, baptism's effect on salvation, gap theory, open/closed communion, birth control, wine, eternal Sonship, tithing, and/or at least one of a hundred other doctrines, doesn't the original post imply that at least one of them is a "heretick"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 12904)

Brian, I'm really attempting to discover what you are thinking.

Simple questions. Do you have a single resource for authoritative, sound, Biblical doctrine? Yes or no.

Good question Forrest.
Several of us have already discovered what Brian is thinking, and also teaching on his own forum. Perhaps this will help answer for BrianT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT
So yes, I 'deny the doctrine of an inerrant Bible composed of 66 books as having ever existed and certainly not now."

Yep, that's what I believe. Back to the topic at hand now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 12910)

Good question Forrest.
Several of us have already discovered what Brian is thinking, and also teaching on his own forum. Perhaps this will help answer for BrianT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT So yes, I 'deny the doctrine of an inerrant Bible composed of 66 books as having ever existed and certainly not now."

Thank you Brother Parrish.

Quote:

Oriinally posted by Brother George: HERESY=A belief in a “way” (a doctrine) that is contrary to the “fundamental” beliefs or traditions of a religion. Scriptural or Biblical HERESY = A belief (a “way” or doctrine) that is contrary to a major doctrine contained within the Holy Scriptures and clearly understood and accepted by genuine Bible believers.

WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY:

HER'ESY, n. Gr. to take, to hold; L. haeresis.

1. A fundamental error in religion, or an error of opinion respecting some fundamental doctrine of religion. But in countries where there is an established church, an opinion is deemed heresy, when it differs from that of the church.

The Scriptures being the standard of faith, any opinion that is repugnant to its doctrines, is heresy; but as men differ in the interpretation of Scripture, an opinion deemed heretical by one body of christians,may be deemed orthodox by another.

In Scripture and primitive usage,heresy meant merely sect, party, or the doctrines of a sect, as we now use denomination or persuasion, implying no reproach.

2. Heresy, in law, is an offense against Christianity, consisting in a denial of some of its essential doctrines, publicly avowed and obstinately maintained.

3. An untenable or unsound opinion or doctrine in politics.

BrianT- you are a heretick.

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

That is sound, Biblical, and authoritative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Here Am I (Post 12898)

But without trusting in God and the infallibility of His word, you will be anchorless, adrift, in a sea of conflicting ideas proposed by men.

He's a drifter alright.

George, you came so close but just missed including this verse in your post. It has been a blessing and help to me most recently realizing that the Lord is pleased with me when I expose and teach against the heresies.

I Tim. 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things (false doctrine), thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN again to the word of God!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12911)

Yep, that's what I believe. Back to the topic at hand now?

You're like a legless man wanting to get back to the basketball game. There is NO WAY you can participate in any Biblical discussion because you have no legs to stand on other than your own stinking, humanistic opinion!

Quit wasting your time here.

Yes, yes, I know you all disagree with my views of KJV-onlyism. I get it. Can we get back to the topic now?

I have many KJV-only friends, and have many more "virtual" online friends. In the years I have been studying KJV-onlyim, I have met KJV-onlyists of many different kinds. Some are OSAS, some are not. Some are pretrib, some are posttrib. I have seen KJV-onlyists on both sides of almost all the doctrinal issues I listed in one of my previous posts - some of them even here on this discussion board. George's original post in this thread indicates that we must conclude that in all these cases, at least one of the sides is "heretical".

George's original post in this thread even goes further. He says "Not very PC of Peter to say such a thing, unless – UNLESS GOD VIEWS HERESY (ANY HERESY) as being DAMNABLE!". I am trying to determine if George is saying that one must be free of heresy to make it to heaven, perhaps he can clarify those statements. If this is what he meant, I have even a bigger problem with his original post than I have discussed so far.

Combining these concerns with the posts directed personally at me in this thread, I must ask: if some of you consider me a "heretick" for not accepting KJV-onlyism, does that mean some of you consider being KJV-only a requirement of salvation?

God bless,
Brian

Re: "Heresies & Heriticks"

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 12920)

Aloha brother,

Thanks for the heads up on that verse. When I post the study on my web site I will add it to my verse list.

If you ever come up with any other verses that might shed more light on God's word from any of my Threads or Posts don't hesitate to suggest them to me. I'm always updating my studies, refining and polishing them - trying to make them as thorough and understandable as I can.

May our God bless you and yours always. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12926)

Combining these concerns with the posts directed personally at me in this thread, I must ask: if some of you consider me a "heretick" for not accepting KJV-onlyism, does that mean some of you consider being KJV-only a requirement of salvation?

I think we can all agree that people who have entire websites and/or forums dedicated to teaching "an inerrant Bible has never existed" can be stumbling blocks to salvation. If you were a new convert who was merely asking questions out of ignorance that would be one thing, but your site attacks our KJV views 24/7/365, gets an average of 1427 views per day, and seems to provide a public platform for hundreds of sarcastic KJV critics. I think this is exactly what is causing the negativity you are getting here, because many of us find that notion to be an offensive and dangerous false teaching, and you seem to do it as a routine event, like eating Corn Flakes.

For many here, spreading the idea of teaching God-thirsty people their Bible contains errors is kind of like handing out crack at an elementary school, only worse because of the long term spiritual impact it can have on trusting people who seek Truth. It's the exact opposite of everything this forum stands for.

As you move from thread to thread, and attempt to "blend in," your leaven goes with you, and although you may have decent intentions, the idea of you questioning and talking about the "problems" you have with a pro-KJV member's post (as you are attempting to do here) is as senseless and absurd as a screen door on a submarine. I think it's sad that someone in your position can't see the harm in what you do. What is your denomination?

Thank you brother George for this much needed write up. I have a question though which I always mean to ask or look into, but always forget. What does Paul mean when he speaks of 'uncleanness'? Being clean was such a huge aspect of his previous religion. Could he be speaking of OT cleanliness in any sense?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Re: Stephanos' inquiry

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 12934)

Aloha brother Stephen,

The best way (that I know of) would be to take SwordSearcher and check out all 40 verses with the word "uncleanness" in them. I believe that a review of these verses will show that the word has various "shades" of meaning - depending where it is being used (Context). For example in the Old Testament:

UNCLEANNESS = An unclean thing; a dead carcase; the body of a man [Leviticus 5:3; Numbers 19:13]; Eating the wrong thing [Leviticus 7:20-21]; a running sore - Leprosy, etc. [Leviticus 15:3]; a woman's period [Leviticus 15:26-30; Leviticus 18:19; 2 Samuel 11:4]; various "kinds" of uncleanness [Leviticus 15:31; Leviticus 16:16, 19; Leviticus 22:3]; touching any "creeping" thing [Leviticus 22:5]; sins of a sexual nature, i.e. fornication, adultery, etc. [Numbers 5:19; Deuteronomy 24:1] a land polluted with Idolatry and Abominations [Ezra 9:11] there are several more - but you get the idea. All of these descriptions of "uncleanness" are in relation to the Nation of Israel and The LAW -which we are not under, and have no relation to a born again child of God.

For example in the New Testament:

UNCLEANNESS = the body of a man [Matthew 23:27] - {Remember, the LAW is still in effect - this is still in relation to Israel, since it is before the Cross}; Idolatry and sins of a sexual nature, i.e. fornication, adultery, sodomy, lesbianism, etc. [Romans 1:24-27; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; Colossians 3:5 ]; various kinds of uncleanness [Ephesians 4:19; 1 Thessalonians 2:3, 4:7; 2 Peter 2:10]; and see below - Romans 1:24-32.

There may be some "overlap" in some of these verses, but I think that the "division" is correct.

UNCLEANNESS could also "possibly" be:

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
. . . . . . . .
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

As you can see, "rightly dividing the word of truth" takes not only "knowledge", but it also requires discernment, understanding, and wisdom. All of which the Holy Spirit gives us in our pursuit of the "Truth". But we must approach the Scriptures with an honest and good heart and a contrite spirit:

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

I hope this may be of some help to you brother. :)

Hi Bro. Parrish,

Can you actually stay on topic and answer my questions? Thanks.

Brian

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12945)

Hi Bro. Parrish,

Can you actually stay on topic and answer my questions? Thanks.

Brian

Someone being a heretic or teaching heresy doesn't mean that they are lost, and people get saved out of Bible perversions all the time.

Being a heretic or teaching heresy means that God is not going to bless you or your ministry as far as the heresy goes, and I believe that Peter's "damnable heresies" are a step above (or below, so to speak) simple "heresy"; perhaps those are the falsehoods that cause cults like the LDS, JWs or Christian Science and not only mislead people but put thousands or millions of them in Hell.

Questioning and casting doubt upon His words is undoubtedly in the "damnable heresies" category, if that answers your question.

Again: why are you still here? "Only by pride cometh contention."

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12945)

Hi Bro. Parrish,

Can you actually stay on topic and answer my questions? Thanks.

Brian

Actually I was on topic, your forum seems to fit the topic perfectly.
I already categorized all your questions under "Proverbs 26:4."
How about you answer MY question, I'll ask it a second time:
what is your denomination? :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 12943)

Aloha brother Stephen,

... stuff...

I hope this may be of some help to you brother. :)
[/FONT]

Yeah, I think that uncleanness can be referring to many things, but Paul also wrote:

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (Romans 14:14 KJV)

So I think it's fair to say that Paul can be a bit confusing at times. :D Anywho, I'll look into this a bit more, and let this thread stay on topic.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12945)

Can you actually stay on topic and answer my questions? Thanks.

"These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage." (Jude 1:16)

Quote:

Ultimately I do, since if I don't, someone else is going to decide for me (that's the whole purpose of "studying" the word of God and seeking God's "approval" for "rightly dividing" His word.).

But I don't do these things in a vacuum or on my own, and I don't depend on "schooling"; or professional "scribes" & "scholars"; or even my own intellect. I seek out God's mind on all the issues of life (through His Holy Scriptures - which I have in my hands) and believe what is written in the Bible and act on those things that I learn from it.

George said "Ultimately I do", but I think he meant that in a personal sense and not a global sense (i.e. I don't think he meant that he gets to decide authoritatively for everyone else). The problem with this response is that it doesn't answer the question. I asked: who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine? If George ultimately does for himself (even though he seeks out God's mind in the process) while someone else decides for themselves (who also seeks out God's mind in the process) but comes to a different conclusion, neither is authoritative. Both can call each other heretics, and neither can disprove the charge of heresy against themselves.

George's original post was good on the surface, but once thought through it implies that everyone should call everyone else a heretick at some point (unless they can demonstrate they are truly in 100% agreement on every single point of doctrine), and that even when doing so it's just a chaotic, unauthoritative mess. It's nothing but a source and excuse for schism (1 Cor 12:24) and division (Rom 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 3:3, etc.).

Again, BrianT, you have no business discussing Biblical doctrine on a site when you attack the very basis for that doctrine.

That being said, you raise valid points as far as calling any "false" teaching heresy: one cannot go through life separating from every individual with whom he has a schism in doctrine. While certain things are going to create a problem, such as the KJB issue, millennial doctrines, Salvation (obviously) and sometimes Repentance, other issues are more minor and should not be construed as a reason to part ways immediately. Heresy is unbiblical teaching: doctrines or beliefs that are contrary to Scripture. Water baptism, speaking in tongues, Universal Reconciliation, works salvation, baptism for the dead and others are heresies that should be confronted immediately in anyone that claims the name of Christ.

Again, there's a ditch on both sides of the road: Satan doesn't care which ditch you're in, as long as you're in the ditch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12974)

George's original post said that heresy is opposition to "sound Biblical doctrine". I agree with this, but I asked George "Who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine?". His response was:

George said "Ultimately I do", but I think he meant that in a personal sense and not a global sense (i.e. I don't think he meant that he gets to decide authoritatively for everyone else). The problem with this response is that it doesn't answer the question. I asked: who gets to authoritatively decide what is sound Biblical Doctrine? If George ultimately does for himself (even though he seeks out God's mind in the process) while someone else decides for themselves (who also seeks out God's mind in the process) but comes to a different conclusion, neither is authoritative. Both can call each other heretics, and neither can disprove the charge of heresy against themselves.

George's original post was good on the surface, but once thought through it implies that everyone should call everyone else a heretick at some point (unless they can demonstrate they are truly in 100% agreement on every single point of doctrine), and that even when doing so it's just a chaotic, unauthoritative mess. It's nothing but a source and excuse for schism (1 Cor 12:24) and division (Rom 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 3:3, etc.).

After reading this garbage, I would recommend immediate psychological help and earnest prayer, your perception on reality and truth, or even a simple task like quoting someone, is not anything close to reality.

Your ability to perceive and relate that what you have read is severely and obviously in need of help. Or.... you are just hear to spam.

I'll leave it to someone else to get us back on topic.

As Bro. George pointed out in his original post:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Who were "they?" And what was the "way?" This is when we first see heresy mentioned. Paul was believing contrary to the way of those who accuse him.

So to discern genuine heresy we must discriminate between a true way and a false way.

Getting details wrong is not automatically heresy, and to prove this we only need to read of Apollos:

Acts 18:24-25 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

Knowing only the Baptism of John, Apollos' knowledge and teaching was imperfect. But Apollos was immediately open to being perfected:

Acts 18:26-28 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

At least for me, this answers the "do you have to get everything right" question.

And we can't "weasel out" of calling out heretics by saying "well, we aren't the final authority, so we can say who is a heretic."

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Obviously, Paul had a commandment here, not just a suggestion. So we have a responsibility to discern heresy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 12974)

This is exactly the kind of unsure, uncertain, "there is no definite final authority on doctrine" mumbo-jumbo that corrupt perversions of God's Word have brought about.

Brian, haven't you ever heard a preacher say: "Don't take my word for it, read the Bible and see for yourself"? That's Biblical, just as the Bereans searched the scriptures and checked what Paul said to make sure they were correct.

1 John 2:27 says: "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

The Bible is our final authority, and the Holy Spirit teaches us sound dictrine. It is our job to study, pray, listen to the Holy Spirit, and trust God. Not a theologen, not scholars, not "the orginal manuscripts", which don't even exist. We are to trust God's Holy written Word, inspired, preserved, and perfect.

I agree Diligent. However, we're still stuck with the problem of two people, both reading the same translation and both believing and claiming they are being led/taught by the Holy Spirit, coming to opposing viewpoints. Both check the other's viewpoint in scripture (being Berean) and "discern" the other is in error.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 13009)

First before I answer this quote may I address the Brethren first, George Forrest, Chette, Luke, Stephen, pbiwolski, Here am I, Renee, Billie, Tim and many more who I have come to be blessed by on this forum.
Apologies that I am not on here much as I still have no internet at home and do not wish to post in active topics when my reply to them is limited, but reading over the forums lately I have to post on this topic if I may.

Brian T whats the point? if you dont hold the 66 books of the KJB as the inerrent word of God, why even register with such a site, knowing first that anything you write or post is to sow discord among those who do believe in the preservation of Gods Holy infallible written word.
To answer you quoted post

Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

One MUST be right or else how shall the rest Stand in Truth

If two, three, four, five etc Brethren, lead by the Holy Spirit disagree on a point of doctrine, important and relevant to salvation, one MUST be right. Then must those Brethren reason together until the Spirit shows them all the truth for edification of each other. Sometimes we are lead by the Spirit in our own error in order to come to the Light of the perfect truth through another Brother or Sister.

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
Many times have I had a different viewpoint on a subject matter or a doctrine, and the proper use of the relevant scripture by another brother had guided me into the perfect truth of the matter through God's grace and His Holy Spirit, even a change of mind on the matter.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Now when the truth is made light the spirit will testify of the truth and lead the believer into the Light of that truth

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I discern no desire in your posts for "truth" especially regarding matters of the Spirit and listening to his teaching and admonishing, but a more worldly ecumenical approach to your posting.

James4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Pay attention to the Light that is so apparently shining on you from the other Brethren on this site and submit yourself to the truth and ask yourself the question
John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 12904)

Brian, I'm really attempting to discover what you are thinking.

Simple questions. Do you have a single resource for authoritative, sound, Biblical doctrine? Yes or no.

If yes, what is it?

The source has been outlined, it is the Word of God. We do not use anything less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Swart (Post 13027)

The source has been outlined, it is the Word of God. We do not use anything less.

Thanks for a simple, straight, clear, honest answer. I agree...if you conclude that the preserved written word of God is in the King James Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianT (Post 13009)

BrianT--I will gladly consider differing views on Doctrine with a "brother" who "believes" the word of God is preserved, in the English language, in the 66 books found in the Authorized King James Bible. Otherwise, there is simply no authoritative, absolute word to discuss.

It's simple. God is all authority. God said He would preserve every word. I believe that He preserved His authoritative written word in the King James Bible.

You are focusing on man's authority, understanding, knowledge, and interpretation. It has already been established that man may get it wrong. But the FIRST issue that must be settled is: DO WE HAVE IN OUR POSSESSION TODAY THE PRESERVED WRITTEN WORD OF GOD, IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE?

You have already said you do not believe we do. I cannot discuss, learn, or be edified from someone who has no authoritative scripture.

I cannot use anything but the KJV, this is the Book that God used to show Himself to me (through His Holy Spirit), I do not hold it in the air and declare that this is the inspired Word of God "in the original autographs', the Book That I go by is able to compare to the "original autographs" and agree with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Swart (Post 13040)

Do you believe it (King James Bible) is the preserved written word of God?