Magic In The Church
 

Does the Bible's condemnation of witchcraft, necromancy, etc. have a valid application in today's society?
I am fully aware of occultic activity, the Wiccans, and all their "friends" including Masonry, etc.
But how about Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy?
What about "THe Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe"?
What about "Star Wars" and its use of "The Force"?
What about Harry Potter?

Are these appropriate reading/viewing materials for Bible-Believing Christians?
Is it "fair" to label these as "magic"?

I am curious to know what the folks think about the latter four, since they are so prevalent in today's society. I have my views, but I would like to hear some of yours first, if y'all don't mind!:)

Thanks in advance,

My view is this: Christians have a certain degree of liberty in regards to the things they participate in. BUT that being said, the thing to keep in mind when deciding whether something is a healthy Christian activity or not is forseeing the consequences endorsing an activity might have on the weak in faith. What kind of message do we want to convey to children by endorsing books/movies that make witchcraft look like fun etc? Do we really want our children running around pretending to be little Hermione Grangers and Harry Potters casting spells on eachother? Do we want that childhood memory to stay with them when they get older and hear about real witchcraft, and are exposed to the seduction it has? Everything has a consequence, and everything we endorse sets a precedent in the eyes of young people and young Christians.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Yes, I believe it does. It is a portal to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and if you open yourself up to it the god of this world will blind your mind.

I think it's fair to label them as such, yes. They are not appropriate for any Christian, young or mature in the faith. The subtlety which Satan uses in these stories is so crafty that even the mature Christian can be deceived by it. Best policy for the Christian, just like with alcohol, is to abstain from it, IMO.

Hello Brother Steve (from a fellow Texan down in Houston). This is a great question. And one that will surely "label" those who give an answer. I hope no one holds my particular view and answer against me.

Personally, I do not think it's "fair" to label them as "magic" or "necromancy." But that's only my opinion concerning "Star Wars" and "Lord of the Rings." I have not seen/read the others you referenced. However, I do think the Holy Scriptures always have an application for us today.

I guess the key word for me is really discernment. In saying that, I support the truth that it's always wise for us to:

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

That's pretty broad, I know, but the Holy Spirit will guide us through the word. Do I always avoid all appearances of evil? No, I do not. And I do not (at least try not) to "label" those who decide to read/view the materials you referenced. I cannot be their Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 13 v8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines.

God hasn't changed,therefore what is said about witchcraft is still a valid application. Satan influences us with visuals, in order to get us to sin. God gave us free will,we can either act on those thoughts and sin, or let them go and obey Him. Watching can also be a stumbling block to others,but,so could the music we listen,Television Shows or even the way we conduct ourselves on a daily basis.

Romans 14 v13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Whatever does not come from faith is sin. I have a background in English Lit. so, I have read Lewis and Tolkien, I just take it with a grain of salt. I take is fiction, plain and simple. :) Blessings.

If you study magic out in the Bible, the supernatural power which is forbidden is that which is derived from demonic forces or Satan. Obviously, God doesn't operate through spells and potions, but through Divine Power, so the real-world application of "magic" is ungodly and unbiblical and should be eschewed by Christians with all vehemence.

On the other hand, however, the fantasy world is rather far removed from reality. In Lewis' "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe," for example, magic is similar to "the Force" in Star Wars; not a spiritual power, but one harnessed by those spiritual powers (or human) for good or evil. Obviously this is not even remotely close to necromancy (zombies) or sorcery (witch at Endor) which is forbidden in the Bible; the fantasy "magics" are many times simply a force like electricity: useful and able to be harnessed for human use. In Lewis' books, the "Deep Magic" was similar, in his allegorical works, to the Law of God, in my opinion. A traitor, according to the law, was to be killed, but the "Deep Magic" allowed that a perfect substitute could willingly give his life for that of the traitor, and the power of evil would be broken.

Now Lewis was far from a sound theologian, and many of his books are allegorically groundless, but in this example (and the astounding last-days prophecy in "The Last Battle for Narnia") the "magic" was simply a way for him to express the allegorical power of God, or perhaps the Law, to children who would read his books.

I think it is the same with Lord of the Rings: there are good "wizards" and there are bad "wizards"; these characters use powers that are more similar to what could be called sorcery, but these powers are more like elemental or residual forces, not spirits and devils.

Calling "the Force" witchcraft is rather comical to anyone who is really acquainted with the Star Wars saga. Yes, it shares a lot of similarities with New Age "life force" ideology, and perhaps is even derived from that, but there is little in Star Wars that could be likened to Biblical witchcraft.

Harry Potter? Dumb question. That's sorcery right out of Deuteronomy. I watched the first movie and part of the second, simply out of curiosity (and to know what they were about), and I must say (apart from the deplorable acting and stupid story lines) that Hogwarts (and their homosexual headmaster) is nothing but a tool to integrate demonic powers and ungodly spirituality into young children. Any Christian that allows their children to watch that trash is an idiot; if a mature Christian wishes to watch them to better discuss them with someone who is deceived by it, then that's between you and God. I'm not going to tell you what you can and can't do.

Now I'm not saying that any of the above-mentioned materials are "wholesome" other than for pure literary value (except Harry Potter!!). I would have no problem with my 8-10 year-old children reading The Chronicles of Narnia and perhaps my 12-14 year-olds reading The Lord of the Rings, but again it's for literary value alone. However, that's at the parents' discretion, and between them (or you) and the Lord. I don't deign to tell people what is right and wrong (other than what is clearly spelled out in Scripture), as should no one, so if you think that any of the books or movies above are wrong, then by all means avoid them. I simply wish to explain my viewpoint and why I don't think that Christians' most maligned series are bad.

Here's my take on this topic:

Does the Bible's condemnation of witchcraft, necromancy, etc. have a valid application in today's society? Yes, definitely.

I am fully aware of occultic activity, the Wiccans, and all their "friends" including Masonry, etc.

But how about Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy? My belief is that this is wicked and we should stay far away from it. There is no such thing as a "good" wizard, and so this is deception.

What about "THe Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe"? I don't believe CS Lewis was a Christian, and I don't believe this to be good literature. I believe we should stay as far away from the evils of witchcraft as possible instead of trying to see how close we can get to a line without going over it.

What about "Star Wars" and its use of "The Force"? This too, in my belief, is wickedness.

What about Harry Potter? Ugh, no! Very wicked stuff here.

Are these appropriate reading/viewing materials for Bible-Believing Christians? I don't believe that Christians ought to watch or read these sorts of things, but unfortunately the only one my husband agrees with me on is Harry Potter, which makes me sad because it means my kids will be involved in witchcraft with their father's consent.

Is it "fair" to label these as "magic"? Yes, definitely, as that is what they are.

To be honest, it has always baffled me as to why any Christian would consider any of these things to be acceptable. I used to be involved in such things as witchcraft and satanism and know the damage it can cause, which is why I am so worried when others don't see the wickedness with these kinds of "fantasy" stories. I'm even uncomfortable with fantasy as a genre.

I must agree with Aussiemama.
Jesus and Paul warned us that "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." What Christians view as harmless, the devil views as a tool to gain access into the lives of believers. Many Christians - even fundamentalists, and yes even some KJVO folks - have accepted Harry Potter. How can this be? Well, it started way back there with Dorothy and "Glenda the Good Witch of the NOrth." Folks, there is no such thing as a "good witch."
There is no written record anywhere of CS Lewis' conversion. I doubt his salvation myself. While some may excuse his use of witchcraft as an allegory, I find no scriptural precedent for such use. Jesus Christ spoke in many parables, but He never used an evil means to parallel something GOOD. Witchcraft is evil - all forms of it are to be avoided.
The same is true for Tolkien.
We might as well throw Walt Disney in this as well, since all of those sweet little innocent childrens stories are all steeped in witchcraft - with very few exceptions. Even the ones without apparent references (ie fairy godmothers, etc.) have at least verbal references to magic.
Necromancy deals with a suppossed ability to communicate with the dead. In answer to my own question about STar Wars and "the Force" it is indeed a form of witchcraft. Actually the entire Jedi order is nothing more than a different term for the Far Eastern mystical religions. But the ability to levitate, move things, etc are all "magical" powers, so I think it does fall into this broad category, even though it isn't "traditional" magic (ie witches, sorcerers, potions, spells, etc.) Actually, I think it is a little bit closer to reality than the other fictional works.

I believe these are used to introduce ideas and philosophies that are contrary to Scripture. They are subtle, and hard to identify, but the influence is there even if we don't recognize it. Just because it doesn't cause us to jump off the cliff into utter apostacy doesn't mean it has not had a negative affect on us.
Christians allowed Lewis and then Tolkien, so why not Star Wars and Harry Potter? What makes Tolkien acceptable and Potter NOT acceptable? This is an inconsistent position to take.
For me, the danger is that if the wizardry and witchcraft in Tolkien/Lewis is acceptable, then so is the witchcraft and wizardry in many other series of books that promote this sorcery. Terry Brooks wrote several science fiction/fantasy series. THen there is the Dungeon and Dragons stuff also.

It is all the same stuff, and the lure is to sorcery - one small step at a time. It may not get YOU, but what about your children? If you allow Tolkien, they will allow Potter.
THe latest thing now is a series by Mormon author STephanie Meyer. The storyline involves werewolves and vampires. Of course, they don't drink the blood of humans - these are "civilized" vampires. The group of kids that grew up on Potter are eating this series up. That is how the devil works. He throws us something that looks "christian" or allegorical or innocent (think Glenda the "good" witch) and hooks us into something a LITTLE bit more dangerous.

I for one renounce all the hidden things of dishonesty. We are to walk as children of light. Why should we endorse such darkness and evil?
I do not understand the Bible Believers who endorse this stuff.
The arguments advanced in favor of this witchcraft are the exact same arguments I heard from "fundamentalists" who don't believe the KJV is the perfect word of God. It doesn't hold water. Either the Bible is relevant to all cultures and all ages, or it is a dead book that means nothing to us today.
Acts 19 shows us that those converts burned all their curious works.
I think we should follow their steps.

In Christ,

It's not a good idea to share marital disagreements like this in public.

Hey pastor,

I agree.

Acts 19:18-20 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

I think this is a great verse to highlight the position we Christians must stand for. The occult is so seductive, even to a seasoned champion of the Book. So lets guard ourselves against this filth, and guard those who might be looking to us for an ensample.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

I certainly agree with you that if you own books "...which [are being] used [for] curious arts" you should bring those "...books together, and [burn] them before all men." :eek:

Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

I've never read a Tolkien book, but I sure wouldn't imply that someone who has read one is a "user of curious arts" for reading a fantasy novel.

Is practicing witchcraft permissible? Certainly not. Is reading fantasy fiction the same as practicing witchcraft? No.

Let us each be fully persuaded in our own minds and let us not be legalistic about such things.

I don't think reading a fictional fantasy book which includes witchcraft and sorcery is practising witchcraft. I simply believe that it opens the door for our enemy to have an unnecessary influence - whether we realize the affects or not is irrelevant. (Actually, the most OBVIOUS affect is TOLERANCE of witchcraft!!!)
It also allows others who are watching us to question this practice, and then take what WE allow another step further.
It also allows us an open door to allow other types of books/movies in.
In my view, it is the top of the "slippery slope."

I am not being legalistic about this at all. I believe that the Bible's condemnation of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, etc. should be sufficient for us to NOT WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT in any form. In my view, it is NOT a liberty issue, since the Bible speaks directly to the matter. To say that those passages do not apply because these books are fictional is to dismiss the relevance of the Bible.

Just because it is fiction does not negate its affects or its connections to the occult. Wiccans don't believe in practicing "black magic", they use their "arts" for "good." So just because Gandolf is a "good" wizard, doesn't make him any less evil - at least according to the Bible. Where do the "good" sorcerers get their power from anyway? The Lord? The Holy Spirit? Do they acknowledge the Holy Scriptures? If the source of their power is not the Lord, then there is only one other source left - the devil. Why play with his minions?



In Christ,

So wizardry is not anti-Christian???

I brought this point out because one of the key elements of "The Force" and the "Jedi Order" is the ability to communicate with the dead Jedi. If this isn't Necromancy, I don't know what is.

Good post. I think your comment about "TOLERANCE of witchcraft" being the obvious affect from reading and watching this material, and it being a bad example to others, are excellent points!

Brother, you are hitting real close to home in this thread, and we all need to hear it and consider the consequences of allowing such trash to enter our minds and those of our impressionable children.

I just want to say something about C.S. Lewis

The man was wrong on a lot of things. Yes.

But some are saying "I doubt his salvation". Why? Because you never read his conversion testimony. I haven't read yours, but I don't doubt that you are all saved. I haven't read Spurgeons, but I don't doubt that he was saved. I wonder how many great men of God in times past never had a written testimony of salvation...

What are the requirements for salvation? Do you have to have your doctrine right? Do you have to understand everything in the Bible? Or do you simply have to understand and believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ upon the cross. Because as far as I was aware, that was it - believing in Jesus Christ's free grace to all who receive by believing.

Judging a man as unsaved because he has bad doctrine is ridiculous. It is quite clear that C.S. Lewis understood the atonement, and if he believed it, he is in heaven right now regardless of whether he ever wrote his testimony down.

Those accusing a dead man of things they cannot possibly know need to get off their high horse. You are not any more saved because your doctrine is right or you read the right Bible. You are saved the same way as everyone else.

[/rant]

God bless
Luke

EDIT: I wasn't writing this in his defense. I've never read a C.S. Lewis book, and I don't intend to. The premise of the screwtape letters does not appeal to me, and I prefer non-fiction.

Yeah I was thinking this too. I don't doubt CS Lewis' conversion. I don't keep the Lamb's Book of Life, so it's not my job to say his name is or isn't there. But I can warn people about what he might have written, but that's where I draw the line.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I understand your point here brother, but just so you are aware of this, when I was a teenager, one of the reasons I was so attracted to the occult was because of the Fantasy books I was reading at the time. I wanted so badly to be a powerful wizard that when I was introduced to Wicca I dove head first. So I can attest that this literature can lead a person to the real thing. So this is why I personally try to remain on guard that I don't harm a brother by those things which I allow.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

I doubt CS Lewis' salvation because I saw a published book of letters between him and Tolkien where he basically said he wasn't saved and that his fiction books such as "the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" were NOT Christian fiction, they were just fantasy.

I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea...if my husband actually cared. (Which he doesn't). He often mentions in public things we disagree on, not to fight about them but usually just a matter of fact thing, especially when people have different opinions on certain subjects such as these. My husband is not one who expects me to agree with him on everything, and he sure doesn't expect me to pretend to agree with him in public either. He's great like that.

Just remember this. Lion Witch and the Wardrobe were books read in Christian circles in the late 60s and 70s. I had all of the CoN books before even before all this witchcraft other books came out.

I enjoyed reading them like other books I had as a child. Has anyone read the Hardy Boys. Just wait someone will twist these later to be something else.

All I have to say is the modern era of thinking is read into things that are not there. Now all this has ruined my enjoyment in reading. This is because of the twisting of meaning that we who were jids in the 60s never read into our books.

All we had to worry about in the late 60s and 70s were stay away from the movie The Exorcist and Ouji boards. Then D&D came out of someone twisting JR Tolkien's books (which I have not read except The Hobbit, the others were boring to me) I hated that game and seen no since in it.

Just for the enjoyment of reading books outside of the Bible. I enjoy reading Science Fiction. Has anyone read Edgar Rice Burroughs other books about Venus and Mars. Good reading until someone starts making out something else of these too.

My grandmother encouraged my cousins brothers and sister and I all to read books that peak our interest. She did not say it directly but bad books were not encouraged. She was banned from certain books that her mother who was a daughter of a preacher would not let her read. She did read them later in her 60s and its funny but the books my great-grandmother said was bad was romance where the physical contact was at most was hand holding, seating next to the one you love. She would have been 100 this month and I have missed her wisdom and love she had for us. One great thing she was saved before she passed away.

We have started reading into to much and have ruined the innocence of reading no wonder we have a country of illiterates.

We are home schoolers, and we once had a government school teacher tell us (along with other home schoolers) that it was dangerous for us to allow our child, new at reading, to read books that featured animals speaking and engaging in other human activities. Her rationale was that children were not capable of separating fantasy from reality. We ignored her, and our son loves to read and has no trouble telling the difference between fiction and fact. He even knows (and has always known) that Santa Clause is a lie.

Anyway, this doesn't directly relate to your post, but it occurred to me when I read your last sentence up there so I figured I'd throw it in. :)

Good comeback. When a child learns to read they start understanding the differences from fact and fiction.

Our children were home schooled too. They became to wise in the the truth to although I think I might have given to much to one over the other. Letting them have to much truth left me with one of my kids actually going againest me after they left on their own. Then breaking the rules set down before they moved from home.

They never believed in Santa Claus or Easter Rabbit. I was public school raised and I was saved in 1971. I remember my mom (who is not a Bible Believer but she is saved) stopping us from going trick or treating years ago. For us not letting our kids do it was easy. Instead we were in church as often as we could be there outside of work or sickness.

My favorite books were my encyclopedia's.

off my soap box for now ....

That's funny, Brandon. We are also home schoolers and never taught the Santa thing. I'm reminded of a funny incident that occurred when my youngest daughter was about 5. When asked by a Grandparent, "What is Santa going to bring you for Christmas?" She looked puzzled and replied, "I don't know him!"

When our son was younger, every year I had to remind him that other children believed in this Santa Clause myth and that it wasn't our place to convince them he wasn't real. I don't think he has ever really "got" why other parents make up stories to tell their children -- and then don't tell them they are just stories!

I'm still not sure I "get" it either. We never had a hard time enjoying the season without making our boy believe in a fairy tale. I've always figured that if I expect him to believe me when I tell him about the Lord, whom he can not see, I had better not make him believe things I know aren't true!

I can see my son is a lot like me and doesn't like not telling someone the truth when he knows it. The other night we were enjoying a meal with friends who voted for Obama (yes, we have friends who voted for Obama!), and Nathan was nearly blowing his top that their boy (about his age) was glad Obama won. :D So it's kinda hard for him not to "spill the beans" for the other kids.

I think my wife has the same book. I might read that part again. She read it to me quite confused, but from my understanding, that section was written BEFORE he believed the gospel, and he was sharing his love for fiction with Tolkien, who despite being Roman Catholic, was trying to get him to understand the atonement. I know he wrote to Tolkien explaining his love for mythology such Odin, who died upon the tree for Yggdrasil (Norse mythology), and Tolkien was trying to get him to understand that the Bible was the same, except it was fact, not mythology.

Maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway, I didn't name anyone. I still think it's wrong to judge a dead man as unsaved because of bad doctrine. For example, Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration. Was he saved or lost?

I'll take the book to work and try and find the quote :)

Okay, Brother Steve. As I said in my first post, we cannot be someones Holy Spirit. I sincerely appreciate your passion for the subject. I mean that. And I appreciate anyone who edifies with the word of God. But this, I think, is a case of "others may" but "I cannot." When He (the Holy Spirit) leads you to do is going to always be right. I strongly urge all of us to avoid placing one another in our "frame of reference box" regarding this particular subject.

For me, when I watched the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, for example, I made many scriptural applications of what I know to be true. (Mainly, Good...Jesus Christ versus evil...Satan.) The Lord frequently brought various scriptures to my mind.

Here's what I do. When my inner man is troubled, or I discern or perceive in my spirit (which has been reborn and made new), that something--anything, is not right...I flee. I avoid it. I've often told my family, "I do not know why, but we do not need to read/watch that."

I know, and understand, others have a differing opinion and will judge and scrutinize the statement I just made. But I'm kind of weird guy anyway, I actually teach my family to pray for the anchors and the reporters when we watch the news on the Fox News channel! I pray for the salvation of actors and actresses, too.

We have tried to always teach our children the unfeigned word of truth. And have placed "Christ" over "character," knowing that if they love Jesus Christ first, they will have good character. They are all, by God's grace, involved in ministry. And they have no problem separating truth from reality. I think the head of a household or an individual should follow Jesus Christ and allow HIM to direct their paths. Just my take on it. :)

Good point. It always troubled me that "Santa" was made out to be like a god. "He knows if you've been good or bad," he the giver of gifts, he never dies, he's powerful--covering the entire world in one night. Yet he becomes man, who likes milk and cookies!

Spurgeon may never have written an official testimony of salvation, but it is quite evident from his preaching that he was indeed saved. In addition there are numerous biographies that attest to the fact.
I have never written an official testimony of salvation, but I have stated it publicly many times.
Somebody who wrote so prolificly as CS Lewis should attest to their salvation somewhere, somehow.
The FACT is that we don't have ANY record of his conversion - written or verbal.
I didn't say that he WASN'T saved as a matter of fact, but rather that I doubt his salvation. This leaves the door open for the possibility that he is indeed saved. THis is all a red-herring though, because use of witchcraft as an allegory is contrary to Scripture. As such, all Christians should avoid it.

There are, no doubt, some grey areas that fall into the liberty category. I fully understand that. But these areas, in my view, are much smaller than most American Christians want them to be. We are an entertainment based society, so we have a tendency to justify our entertainment.

I don't think we can lump sorcery, witchcraft, etc. into a "liberty" category, because it is categorically condemned throughout Scripture. There are no exceptions made for it. There is no excuse given of "oh, well, it is just fiction. That makes it ok."

I am one of the easiest Pastors around. I don't have "lists" of do's and don'ts. I believe firmly that each of us needs to make up our own minds on certain issues, but where the Scriptures speak clearly on a subject, we MUST hearken, believe, and act. The Scriptures speak loud and clear on magic. Why are there so many KJV Bible Believers that refuse to hear the warnings?

Isa. 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."

II Corinthians 6 also seem relevant.

What we allow in our generation will be stepped up in the coming generations. I have already demonstrated this for you. Wizard of Oz - Lewis - Tolkien - D&D - Star Wars - Potter - etc. Every step gets closer and closer to the "dark side." People get sucked into the occult with these books (as one here has testified.) People get sucked into Far Eastern Mysticism with Star Wars and "The Force."

I see no Scriptural support for the opposition here. The weak argument of Romans 14 will not stand in this case because of the many clear condemnations of witchcraft throughout Scripture.

In Christ,

Wow, I think that was the best post in this whole thread, Here Am I! :)

Several problems here
The Holy Spirit will lead you - INTO ALL TRUTH.
The word of God is truth - John 17:17
We are to worship God according to Truth - John 4:24
The Holy spirit will never lead us into a position that is against the revealed truth of God in His Holy word.
Are you trying to convince me that the Holy Spirit led you to read a book about wizardry, witchcraft, etc??? Based upon what Scripture do you make this claim???
Please give a scriptural argument that shows conclusively that it is an acceptable practise to entertain thoughts on the occult, witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, and supernatural powers when the Bible so clearly condemns them.
Your argument flies in the face of the revealed will of God on the matter.

I am not a dictator. I am a messenger. I am not judging. I am pointing out the principles of revealed Scripture. THe Scriptures are judging you. If you don't like it, take it up with the Lord - He wrote the Book, not me.
The Scriptures are NOT SILENT on this matter. If you or anyone else here wants to keep this junk in their house and life, that is your business.
I simply do not see one Scriptural reason why anyone would want to in light of these clear-cut verses.

Deut 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch (like Glenda!), 11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits (Like the JEDI), or a wizard (Like GANDOLF), or a necromancer. 12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 14For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Exodus 22:18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
(not even the "good" ones that only practice "white" magic - like Glenda, the "good" witch of the North!!!)

Rev. 9:21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev. 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Oh yeah - how could I forget this one?
I Samuel 15:23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Yep, Americans love their rights. They don't like being told what to do. In fact, most of us (myself included) don't even like the LORD telling us what to do.

For all of you witchcraft supporters out there, provide a sound SCRIPTURAL argument that supports the reading of these novels, that doesn't contradict the clear commands AGAINST witchcraft.

The idea that "since it is fiction it is ok" is foreign to Scripture (II Cor. 10:3-6)
The idea that "since it doesn't have any [visible or tangible] affects, it is ok" won't wash either. The very fact that some here are tolerant of it only reveals that they DO have an affect on the way you think - you have accepted that which God calls an abomination.
The idea that "the Holy Spirit will lead me" is a good idea, until we find out that the Holy spirit ONLY leads us to the truth, and it will never violate Scripture.

Are we Bible believers here in theory only???

In Christ

This has been an interesting thread. Just a few reactions:

1. One's choice of literature (in the context of this thread) is a matter of Christian liberty. If I want to read Harry Potter books all night long, I'm free in Christ to do so - - - if my conscience doesn't condemn me (1 John 3:21). That's the flip-side of "liberty:" it only works if we're truly seeking God's will. Therefore, I can't read Harry Potter (not that I'd want to); but neither can I say that a brother who reads it is sinning against God. I will say that he's asking for trouble, corrupting his mind, and providing ground for possession by unclean spirits. But I'm not going to say that any Christian who reads such tripe is out of fellowship with God: he or she might simply be stupid. It grieves me, truly grieves me, that my eldest son is raising his kids on Harry Potter; but his mother (to whom I am no longer married, Diligent, so I'm not airing my dirty laundry) raised him on the Narnia books. I do not view this as coincidence. If I knew then what I know now ..... well, that way lies madness!

2. I have seen a number of people, including at least one person in this forum (not myself), influenced toward Christ by C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity." His "Screwtape Letters" is well-done and inoffensive, and provides some good insights. However, I have (recently) studied the symbolism and mythical elements of the Narnia books, and I'm convinced that they are straight out of Hell, and entirely based on pagan myths, some of which are utterly filthy. His inclusion of Bacchus (the god of wine) and the maenids (promiscuous female spirits, the female equivalents of satyrs) should be reason enough to make the books off-limits for children (even though they won't know what they're reading, the subconscious references will stick). And I have read every autobiographical book Lewis ever wrote, and many biographies written by others, and even the books of his letters; and I see absolutely no reason to think that he was a saved man. In his theological works, he expressed belief in purgatory, prayers to the dead (not necromancy, but Catholic-type stuff), and likened the Lord Jesus Christ to the heathen god Apollo. And he very explicitly rejected the divine inspiration of Scripture. Remember, Lewis' literary specialty was myth: this stuff didn't get into his head, or his children's books, by accident. When he had adorable little Lucy frolicking with the drunken satyrs and maenids in the Narnia books, he knew exactly what he was doing.

3. If you're going to really look for necromancy in popular culture, it doesn't stop with Tolkien; in all of the modern (post-1960s) Superman movies and TV shows, Superman regularly communes with his dead father. But I wouldn't say that watching a Superman movie is quite on the same level as consulting a medium. We've got to use common sense in this thing.

4. I read a lot of fiction, and some of you might not approve of some of it. (None of it is occult stuff.) But I'm a grown man, and I know what I'm doing. The Narnia and Potter books are terrible stuff, because they're aimed at kids. If I were a pastor, I'd preach against them; but I wouldn't discipline a church member who read them, or gave them to his/her children.

We've gotta give the Holy Spirit some room to work. And we really should, as much as possible, try to overlook our brethren's shortcomings, as Christ overlooks so many of ours.

Brother Steve, or anyone else, if those books or movies cause you to reject the word of the LORD, cause your children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, if they cause you to observe times, and use enchantments, and use witchcraft, and deal with a familiar spirit, and with wizards, if they cause you to bring forth much evil in the sight of the LORD, if you are, as a result, involved in witchcraft, if they cause you to make your son or daughter to pass through the fire, or use divination, or observe times, or become an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, if they cause you to use sorcery, and bewitch people and it causes you to be possessed with a spirit of divination, which will bring your employer much gain by soothsaying, if those materials cause you to use curious arts, if you are persuaded to call evil good, and good evil; and to put darkness for light, and light for darkness; and to put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter—BY ALL MEANS AVOID THEM. Everything I just said is the BIBLE.

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

2 Chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

Acts 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

I agree with 2 Corinthians 6:3, which says, “Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.” That is why if you if you came by for some fellowship, I would not say, “Hey Brother Steve, would you like to watch “Lord of the Rings”?

1 Corinthians 8:7-13 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Right, I don't think this really is a debatable issue. I don't know why some folks are so wishy washy about it (and honestly, I am a bit so at times.). I used to love fantasy books, and truth be told, I wish I could read them again. But I'd be betraying everything I stand for if I did. My Lord wrote His Words down in a Book, and He is CLEAR on this subject. There is zero ambiguity about His views on practicing this abomination, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that it is also an abomination in His eyes to take pleasure reading about fictional characters practicing these activities in a positive or negative light. I call this passive acceptance. I mean seriously. If Jesus were to walk into the room while you were reading a book that endorses these things (even if in a fictional way) would you be like "hey Jesus, this book is great, the great wizard of the great empire just cast a way cool 10th level enchantment! So exciting!" Seriously. Do we really think God looks favourably on this stuff? I doubt it.

I hate to be so "legalistic", as some might call it, on this. If this was a meats and drink issue I think it would be different, but this is clearly an abomination in God's eyes. So let's not take this to lightly as we proceed to discuss this issue.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Read my post #38, opening paragraph and get clear, Biblical support.

Practicing? I agree.

I do not take pleasure in the wrong. I get pumped about the right!

ANY BOOK.

It's an application, Brother Stephen. If anything I do causes a weaker brother to stumble, I will not knowingly do it.

You are never wrong by doing whatever the LORD JESUS tells you in HIS WORD. No arguing here, just a different opinion. But as I said in my first post, "I'm marked" now. :eek: