SWORD Wars
 

I have been here for a while now on this board, and with great sadness I don't know what to make of this forum at all.
I see a lot of Sword (meaning God's Precious Sacred Word of God) being used what I would deem sacrilege to make points and sling mud at people.
My husband calls this kind of thing, Sword Wars.
And does that not speak perfectly?
And then when Scripture is quoted, words are added to make sure that the person being addressed is cast down and made sure to know that they are not grounded in Scripture and having no idea that some people, like me, have even been involved in defending God's Word in disastrous translations that were being produced (such as defending Leviticus 6 or Matthew or John) (although rejected sometimes but still wrote in defense of God's Word)...let alone having a preaching and teaching anointed husband who is quite known for teaching in layman's terms the Old Testament and how it relates to the New Testament.
Now I know just saying this, I know that a lot of people here will jump in and make wide excuses and say things like, they are defending the Word, and well, I can think of many ways people will jump on my case for merely saying what I said here.
I certainly can get out my software and get to quoting Scriptures and wow, do I have a few I can use, but it does not seem right to do so, for I don't think that the Lord Jesus called me to do that. As most people see, I am speaking from my heart and what God put in there is coming out. For what God has given me, that is what I am sharing. I am not trying to tear people down by quoting Scriptures and then get a real mud slinging Scripture war going as I see here--often...for the purpose of tearing not building. Then in complete loveless triumph some are acting like it is time for coffee and a job well done.
(In a sense Scripture Quoting can be very dangerous ground because one must savor the entire BIBLE and not cut and paste. I embrace EVERY WORD of the Bible and adore it and even as Jay P. Green, Sr., told me once personally in a letter...that we must believe every Scripture even if we do not understand it. And I took it to heart when he said that to me years ago, for it is true.)
When I came to this board, I was awed by some people who were loving God's Word and too considered it SACRED and I too was awed after coming to where God had brought me--in The King James Bible.
But I just see now, that some people here are using the Bible in an all together different way, in a hate way.
I find that very sacrilege.
I really have pondered so often with a broken heart, that so many forums are just like this, but to see God's Word used in this way, it troubles me so very greatly.
Tears upon tears.

Hi Doxa

Get your feelings on the subject out in the open, give examples of who you feel may be using the Word in a loveless careless triumphant manner, you must bring to light "who" you think is doing this so that it may be rectified or considered. There are times when the word of God is profitable for Doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

there is a time and a season for everything

Ecclesiastes 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

My reply
 

Those who are doing it, know who they are.
As I said before, all can see what has been written in these various topics.
Nothing can be done in secret here--it is all there for everyone to see.

I am not sure about that, I know I have been coming up against a lot of people of recent weeks and I have been praying that I answer in the right way, I would hate to think you class me as the type of person you portray. This is why you need to Speak on WHO you are referring to so no one is in no wise "in the dark" about who you mean.
Am I one? Do I come across that way to you ?

Furthermore
 

Furthermore, if I wanted to expose some one (which I do not), Jesus gave us a protocol on how to handle conflict with individuals. Did HE not say to go to that person one on one first, then so forth???? If that was my intent, I would have followed that procedure. BUT my intent is not that at all!!!
For actually, while I am so sad about all of this, I love each person here and have forgiven them already. It is just that my heart is so broken about all of this.

If one wanted to expose someone, I am afraid, your Scripture selection is not what Jesus said to do as far as protocol.

My intention is that I have hope for this forum, and it took a lot of courage for me to write what I did above.
I wanted to instill a sacredness back into all of this. A wake up call to those who would listen about how we are handling the Word of God.
Can you not see that?
I fear my efforts were a waste of time.

Oh dear
 

I had to leave for a while and had my Furthermore reply in progress, so I did not reply to your reply. That was a Furthermore from my own statement.
But I see that my message does respond to your Scripture selection.
But I hope that you see, I am speaking in love.

Doxa,


This is a very mild forum. One of the mildest I have ever seen. If you want to see what to see a tough forum go and check out FFF. You'll see how it can tough it can get.


http://www.fundamentalforums.com


Atlas

People of the Way
 

Okay, I hurried to reply to that message, so now I will say this.
No, I am not referring to you, and actually, I appreciate everyone here for everyone is offering good things to the board.
I just don't know why the elitist attitude prevails so much here, when the Word of God says to esteem others higher than ourselves. These Scripture Wars as I said are dangerous because in a way one can slant THE WORD OF GOD to skew it anyway to serve their purpose...if one is selectively selecting verses.
This is what saddens me so much, for people feel empowered by it, but in reality they are using God's Word to make their points, whether good or bad.
But Jesus said we can spot His Disciples if we have love for one another.
When I see people mean to one another or unrighteous judgmental ism, and people clamming along with the "empowered" one, it saddens me when no love is demonstrated, instead there is talk of removing the inferior one that does not see exactly the way they see it. Sometimes the inferior one has absolutely no idea what he/she said wrong.

There are posters on this site that have an agenda from the word go, those who serve to bring heresies and contradictions to the Word of God, many learned brothers simply admonish or stop this in its tracks for the greater good.
If it appears that there are those puffing themselves up triumphantly I beg to differ a heritic who is given the truth but proceeds to pursue with his or her heresy needs to be stopped

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Forgive me for one if I, myself have acted the way that hurts you.
But I will not ask forgiveness for casting down imaginations with the Word of God.
It is my Duty as a Bible Believing Christian

I too
 

Dear People of the Way and all here,
I too ask your forgiveness if I have hurt you or anyone here.
And People of the Way, again, you did nothing wrong to me.
Thank you for your kind words.

Also, People of the Way,
Is there a place on this forum that has a statement of faith laid out?
If not, I was wondering, if in a kindly way you could create a topic that would list general beliefs of this forum?
I think a lot of people might wonder where they stand in light of what is being said...and mainly what this forum in general believes.
Perhaps that is where we are shipwrecked, in a way, not knowing when we are stepping on toes or hurting people's beliefs on any given statement of faith.
I think red flags go up for a lot of us, when heretic is mentioned at times on this board, for I do not know when I have overstepped, either. I say that in a most loving way as I do not want to hurt anyone either.

Wow Atlas
 

Wow, I have never seen a Christian forum call themselves "fighting".
I guess they were just pointing out the obvious.
GRIN GRIN GRIN
:p:D:eek::)

That's an accurate assessment.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

How can a forum have beliefs?

This forum does not have beliefs. It has members. How could a post speak for all members?

Frankly, I think your comments about "Scripture Wars" are very telling. You seem to want to encourage people not to base their arguments on the word. Here is a more scriptural approach:

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/stag...he-saints.html

I'm not sure what the objection here really is. Maybe someone could explain to me why anyone would object to someone making their points with Scripture.

1. If someone is correcting me in error, I am not going to be convinced by their good arguments sans Scripture. I need the Bible. I need chapter and verse. If I'm off-base, tell me where, chapter and verse!

2. If someone is wrong in their teaching, I need to know where they are getting it from. I need to know, chapter and verse, what they are basing their understanding on. If I think they are wrong, I need to know how they came to their conclusion and what verses that may be misapplying. How can I do that without them quoting Scripture?

Yes, the word is divisive. That's one of it's God-ordained functions.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Now if this complaint is that some people lack grace, what does that have to do with "the Sword?" "Sword wars" seems to be something negative the way it's been used here, but it's something God has commanded us to do. The word of God is a sword, and it is our offensive weaponry. It is what we are to use to correct error and preach. It hardly seems like a problem that there is too much usage of Scripture. If anything, there isn't enough.

I want to clarify my position. I wrote in my previous post:

I was specifically referring to the statement you made, "My husband calls this kind of thing, Sword Wars." I'm certainly not agreeing with your judgment concerning this Forum, Doxa.

The Word of God is indeed a "Sword" by its own testimony. We (that is, many who are on this Forum) simply speak the word of God which is "...sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

Some do indeed "sling the mud" of carnal opinion, but many are picking up the "Sword" which is "piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Dont worry sister you are 100% to use scripture, and as Brandon says half the time not enough is used.
Doxa, sister, this was my point from earlier that genuine, kind, sincere, tenderhearted brethren will think your post is directed at them.

The Underlined is testament to why we should use scripture for all things, the Bible IS our FINAL authority
1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Proverbs 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

My reply
 

If you look at my messages here on this thread, I am not at all, in no way, stating that we should not support our dialogue using Scripture or using the Bible to support our message or to use Scripture!!!! I believe you all know that if you read the rest of what I said. I am talking about using THE WHOLE WORD OF GOD and NOT cut and paste the Bible. I tell you what, I have seen people (this was at another forum some years ago) use the Bible to show that it was Scriptural that they CAN beat their wives...
Yes indeed.
I will give another example. We could use Scripture to show that we are to pray for and bless our enemies and forgive 7 x 70.
Yet, other Scriptures tell us to NOT cast our pearls before swine. Another verse says don't even let certain people into your homes.
So how exactly do we respond to these enemies or neighbors?
What does that prove?
It shows us carefully that we must tread with the Lord Jesus in all cases as we would be doing great disservice to our neighbor if we were to "select" verses that please us. It is the Lord Jesus Who tells us what to do in the cases we are in, such as dealing with our neighbor or enemy. It shows us that God gives us indeed allowances when God shows us that we do not need to cast our pearls any longer, but not by our suits, but by God's deliverance, HIM speaking to our hearts.
We could even go so far, where Jesus said we are to hate our mother, sister, brother.... but yet Jesus said we are to LOVE and bless. But we can really skew Scripture to please ourselves, unless we read more of the Bible and realize that Jesus is telling us that HE comes first in Who we love, so that our actions are righteous. I could go on and on. If one really looks at what Jesus taught in the Gospels, one might conclude that we are to love others more than God because of HIS message, but then we would be a big mess! But God has HIS order and we are to LOVE HIM THE MOST then everything falls into place. (There is a place where it says everything culminates in "love your neighbor as yourself".)
Oh dear, I better quote it to avoid another misunderstanding...
Gal 5:14-15

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
KJV

MY POINT again is that I am making, is that those who choose to use Scripture in a "biased way" in whatever way that suits, are using the Word un-righteously.
People who teach need to know all of Scripture and rightly lay it out.
That is my point.
All I am saying is that we should humbly and carefully and prayerfully and lovingly use God's Word.

And is it not obvious, for every mean spirited person who throws someone verses, the other can find some to throw back, and then more verses are lashed out until exhausted and by that time everyone is quite confused and went down rabbit trails and everyone is just plain mad and still no one is quite sure what the exact point was sometimes??? Am I the only one who has seen this time and time again on forums?

This is what one calls SWORD Wars.
:(

When you sense someone is improperly using one single verse out of context, then you are free to "rightly divide" for us. Otherwise, willingly apply the truth of His word and learn.

Let me tell you what love is
 

Love is like prophets of old, such as Jeremiah. They loved their people.
This is one thing not so obvious when studying prophets of old, but once alerted to the fact, one sees it greatly how much prophets loved their people.

Jeremiah was told by God that those who fled to Egypt would die. Although, Jeremiah was forced to go to Egypt and did die consequently, he could have beat feet out of dodge long before then, but he did not, knowing his fate, he did not abandon his people that he loved.

Jeremiah by world's standards would be deemed as the most unsuccessful man ever alive, possibly. What a loser, most would probably conclude.
But to God, oh to God, he was the biggest success...for he was his servant.

In this life, it does not matter if we lose or fail, but if we are a servant of God.

I want to rightly divide His Word and use it effectively. And I see from this topic (that I started) that I need to firmly use Scripture to support my words more, and that this is indeed important. For that I am very sorry, and I realize that I have offended people by what I said, and I am sorry about that too. I hope that you will find that I my words here are in hopes of helping people to be more careful about using all of Scripture and not just cut and paste Scripture to suit self.
The Law was made for the Lawless, and people trying to change the Law are indeed self-pleasing. In the same way, I truly believe that Scripture verses can be cut and pasted to the point of idolatry, which is about "self".
Paul said to Timothy to guard the treasure.
Is not the King James Bible God's Word to treasure in its entirety?

Doxa,

If anyone was offended you are not to blame.

I do not get offended much anymore. Nor should other folks. Many people get offended very easy nowadays. This is very sad. We all need to read and try to live by Ps. 119:165.

:D


Atlas

No offense here, either. By the way, if you would like to read some more an love, I wrote a booklet on the subject with lots of scripture. It's free.

http://www.christdirected.com/2008/0...ildish-things/

Re: "Sword Wars"
 

Aloha sister Here I Am,

Don't worry or fret sister - Doxa is not referring to you or Steve (POTW). I'm sure she is referring to me and the Post I made (AV1611 Forums > Doctrine > Salvation = Faith + Works? > Page 3 > Post #22) in reference to some comments she made on the Forum.

I am not going to hang up my SWORD for some Humanistic "Bean Bag" or "Electronic Tazer"! :mad: God gave us only ONE Offensive Weapon, and if Doxa wants to object to my using it, that's her privilege. If her husband wants to "dismiss" all contending for the faith (with the Sword of the Spirit) as "Sword Wars", a waste of time, or divisive, that's his privilege. But if we have come to the place and time where "plain talk" is considered divisive or using the Scriptures in bolstering one's position is "UNFAIR" :confused: - that's another thing altogether.

This kind of argument only bolsters my point about just how far Humanistic Psychiatry and Psychology has infiltrated the "thinking" of Christians today. There is no "NICE" way to point out continual error. We are warned in the Holy Scriptures against tolerating just a little bit of "leaven".

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Are we to countenance error and false doctrine in order to "get along"? I trow not! :(

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Not everyone who comes to this Forum comes for the fellowship, or to edify, or to be edified. Some Christians that come to this Forum are "novices" in the Scriptures (and have little or no idea about what they are talking about) and, more often than not, their lives are ruled by "feelings" and personal "opinion" - rather than by the Holy Scriptures :

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

As a matter of fact - Not everyone who comes to this Forum is a Christian. There are false "prophets"; false teachers; and false brethren, and we must be beware of them. For it is they who spread false doctrine; leaven; and division - not those of us who are sincerely seeking the truth of God's word and who are earnestly contending for the faith!

I for one, am not going to allow Doxa to hang a "guilt trip" on me, just because her "feelings" get "hurt" by PLAIN TALK. I will not allow the world (or well-meaning Christians) muzzle me, just because they "feel uncomfortable" with the way I express myself.

The Lord Jesus Christ never "beat around the bush" with false doctrine or false teachers. Peter, James, John, and Paul were never "mealy mouthed" about error, leaven, false teachings, or false doctrine. The Apostle Paul said we are to "Follow" him:

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The apostle Paul never once "shirked" his duty to defend sound doctrine (regardless of how the brethren "felt" about it.), and since he is to be my "pattern" and "example" and not some "nice", "sweet", "loving", "non-judgmental" modern pastor or preacher, I am determined to follow him (come what may). Since Paul is to be my "pattern", I am going to obey his teaching and not some Humanistic "drivel" that proceeds out of the mouth of so many Christians today.

Titus 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

I could have gone through each and every one of Doxa's latest Posts and pointed out the faulty thinking and error in what she has said, instead (just in case anyone thinks that I'm being too "harsh") I would ask you to review her last few Posts (or all of them - if your inclined) and see how often she inserts her own "private opinion" into the mix. Who is this woman who is "lecturing" us on LOVE; and rightly dividing; and on Christian conduct; etc.; etc.; etc.; anyway? {Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?}

Whatever a person "thinks", or "feels", is of no concern of mine. I want to know: WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE! I want to know what God has to say about an issue - there are enough "opinions" out there that have literally filled thousands of books.

I am not to live by man's (or woman's) words - I am to live by God's words. [Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]. I refuse to "temper" my speech in order to please someone who relegates the words of God to only those things that they personally "feel" they apply to, and who dismisses any other use of them to "cutting" and "pasting" to "suit oneself".

The word of God can have very little effect on someone who lightly "dismisses" any of them that they don't "like" or "agree" with.:(

George
 

Do you always choose to obey God's commandment to love one another so grudgingly?
I would highly recommend as you suggested that people re-review what I said if you find it necessary.
Also, the commandment about judging people as you do, which we are not to do (except judge righteously), do you dismiss that commandment too?
(Referring to your earlier points about my not being grounded in Scripture and the host of insults you sent my way?)
But more important, your slinging of comments and Scripture that obviously come from an angry spirit.
I could quote tons of Scripture here right back at you, and you know it.
What would that do?
Would you talk the way you did to me here just now as you would to your Pastor if he sat right here next to you? Of course not, you hypocrite.

I think everyone who joins a forum has just to consider the "nature" of forums. To me, however, forums are primarily where one expresses ideas, thought, and opinions, and secondarily emotions.

When joining a forum, I would not try to be too "emotionally involved" and would rather give way to objective discussion. Some things go out of hand, of course, the reason why there are moderators.

Doxa

I read over Georges post and I did even as you said and went back and read yours. Can you answer me a few questions, simply to know where you are coming from

1.Do you believe women should be allowed to preach?
2.Do you believe that the catholics go to heaven with their interpretation of scripture?
3.Do you believe that all Churches are set for heaven regardless of their doctrine? if they say they "believe" in Jesus
4.Do you believe in the gift of tongues
5.You said back in a previous post, that God showed you a vision of Elijah is that correct?

these are not trick questions, I just wish to know.

Dear People of the Way
 

I understand now...you want me to answer these questions with Scripture.
Okay give me some time...I will...I concur, very odd questions.
One can only wonder what is meant by these particular questions.
But if you need to know...

No need to answer this with scripture a simple yes or no is sufficient for me, like I said this is for my understanding.

People of the Way
 

1.Do you believe women should be allowed to preach?

I wrote this a long time ago; so glad I was able to locate it in my files; this about sums up what I believe on the verses that pertain to “women preachers”…….please note this was years ago, and even the Baptist folks that I knew encouraged me to study this out using Greek manuscripts and materials even providing me with books to study further.

Greetings in the Name of Jesus.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx....

Recently, on another discussion board the verses in Ephesians came to light...

Eph 4:8-11
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(KJV)

XXXXX, would you not assume that it would suggest that these gifts were given to “men”???
But look at the definitions for this Greek word “men”... (It is not the Greek word for only men.)

STRONG’s Definition:

444 anthropos (anth'-ro-pos);

from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:

KJV-- certain, man.


THAYERS’ Definition:

444 anthropos-

1) a human being, whether male or female
a) generically, to include all human individuals
b) to distinguish man from beings of a different race or order
1) used of animals and plants
2) used of from God and Christ
3) used of the angels
c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led
into a mistake or prompted to sin
d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt
and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman

Would that not IN FACT support the role of women in the Ministry??? Hence, my question.

The following is a letter I wrote sometime ago on another discussion board.

Dear Saints of God,
Greetings in the Name of Jesus.
This question impacted me greatly over a year ago. The scriptures that we are discussing are:

1 Cor 14:34-36
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
(KJV)

1 Tim 2:11-12
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(KJV)

What happened to me was that if you take verse 1 Cor 14:34 “literally as translated”, it conflicts with the Bible. Then, I noticed that each church divides that verse or interprets it the way they feel like it; basically how much a woman can participate in church. When you take it literally (just the way it is written) a woman cannot even pray in church. This of course opposes other Scripture where we are to pray without ceasing. I was thoroughly confused as I looked at many translations and discovered that most were translated the same way.
Did this mean that women should not go to church, I wondered? What am I doing in church if I cannot pray out loud or sing or prophecy or have a Word of Knowledge, etc. etc. There are many churches, I believe, that will not let a woman pass out communion and a host of other things, but I ask you, where is the Biblical support for that?

So, I went to the Greek manuscripts, and this is what I came up with after much study and reading on this topic:

This is my translation based on the manuscripts that I saw:

1 Cor 14:34 Let your wives be in quietness in the assemblies, for it is not permitted for them to chatter, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.
1 Cor 14:35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for a wife to chatter in the assembly.

(Another picture of marriage representing the Christ and the Bride of Christ, silent before God, and asking God privately for revelation.)

1 Tim 2:11 Let a wife learn in quietness with all subjection.
1 Tim 2:12 But I do not permit a wife to teach-as ruling or lording over her husband nor with her own words kills her husband but to be in quietness.

(A picture of the Bride of Christ and their Husband, Jesus)

Regarding the word “speak” in 1 Cor 14:34…in the Greek it is 2980 laleo: to talk, utter words, emit a sound, speak, use tongue, utter articulate sounds, to tell, declare one’s mind, disclose one’s thoughts (an extended or random harangue (to address in) a noisy or scolding speech---idle chatter, talk idly)

Here is the important note about the word “teach” in 1 Tim 2:12: Strong’s #1321 didasko 1) to teach, instruct by word of mouth: what is meant in this verse is teaching that is lording over her husband. Very important note—this Greek word “teach” is not 1317, 1318, 1319, 1320, 1322 --- various other words for “teach” in the Greek. I would advise checking them out and comparing the various definitions for “teach”.

Also, regarding usurp authority --- that is #831 authenteo 1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself 2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic 3) an absolute master 4) to govern, to exercise dominion over one.

I believe these Scriptures are dealing with husbands and wives because they are a picture of Jesus Christ, ever Faithful (Our Lover), and His Bride, who Love and Respect HIM. I believe marriage should be a replica of this.

This is what happened to me last year…I was sitting in the living room and after much searching and studying, I asked the Lord why do so many of these translations translate the same way? The Lord gave me only one word, “Persecution”.


2.Do you believe that the catholics go to heaven with their interpretation of scripture?

3.Do you believe that all Churches are set for heaven regardless of their doctrine? if they say they "believe" in Jesus

Regarding 2 & 3, I will answer them together….

Point One:
Luke 9:49-51
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
KJV
Point Two:
Rom 8:19-20
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
KJV
Point Three:
I for one believe this will surprise us when it happens…
Matt 7:20-24
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Point Four:
Matt 25:31-26:1
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
KJV

As far as those who make it to Heaven, I do believe that God looks on the heart. Those who fear HIM (JESUS) and love HIM and Obey Him.

4.Do you believe in the gift of tongues………
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
Acts 2:11-12
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
KJV
Acts 10:46-47
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
KJV
Acts 19:6-7
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
KJV
1 Cor 12:10-11
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
KJV
1 Cor 12:28-29
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
KJV
1 Cor 12:30-31
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
KJV
1 Cor 13:8-9
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV
1 Cor 14:5-6
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
KJV
1 Cor 14:6-7
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
KJV
1 Cor 14:18-19
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
KJV
1 Cor 14:21-22
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
KJV
1 Cor 14:22-24
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
KJV
1 Cor 14:39-40
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
KJV

5.You said back in a previous post, that God showed you a vision of Elijah is that correct?
Yes, and many other awesome experiences from the Lord.

[QUOTE]It is the love and obedience to God's word that compels the love that George has for fellow christians that rightly divide God's word. Most here do not cut and paste as you claim.

.

I have read and reread your post and find it underserving of much comment.

The words from your mouth judge you. He judges you righteously from the Word.

Insults were not intended, only that you learn from the word. And that scripture is at the root of his post. (If he meant to insult you, just grit your teeth and take it like a man.)

Doxa, George has a right to be angry, (I call it righteous anger) you as a woman are totally out of order.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

You have gone beyond expressing what you believe. You are now trying to teach. If you go to Timothy you will see that it is not in church.

Yes I am sure you could twist and wrest the scripture to say what you want.

Wrong again Doxa, Yes he would !!!! You see George is no respecter of persons.

And we call no man on earth "Father", pastor, rabbi, or what have you.

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I do not know your heart but I preceive that it is wicked and that little tongue of yours has sure kindled a great fire.

Be careful of the word hyprocrite for when you point that finger three are pointing back at you. If I know anything about George, it is that he is definitely not a hypocrite. What you see is what you get, and when he says something he will try to live up to it. And when he makes a promise he will try in all his power to keep it. Do not speak and attribute names to one you do not know.

Take what I have said anyway you want. For that is the way of a woman.

Renee

I want to share my simple take on this. I want to first of all say that the KJB is the sole authority on all matters of faith and practice in the Christian Church. If we can't go to it to make our points, or defend ourselves then we have nothing. BUT I also want to say that when you have members of the Church who seem more often than not to lack charity and hospitality for the brethren then you will see conflict such as this. I want to make it clear that I love Christians. I get so much of the world each day that I YEARN for time with Christ's body. I'm not exagerating here. The world is just to much some times and I find peace when I can be with those who understand the struggles we Christians battle with each day. What hurts me so much is when I see more infighting among Christians than you see among the world. Why do Satan's children have more love for each other than some of God's children? Perhaps this is a aberrant way of viewing things. If I go to my grave being a Christian who only knew Christ crucified and risen, and the love of the brethren, then what could I possibly be missing? Call me what you may, this is where I stand.

Doxa, it took great courage to write this thread. I love you sister, and appreciate you and your concerns very much. Please don't feel overwhelmed in well doing. If you have concerns and cannot go before the brethren because of the fear of being ostricised then there is something fundamentally wrong within the Church. Just never forget to keep your eyes on JESUS (and His Word, the King James Bible) and everything else will be added unto you.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Re: "Sword Wars"
 

Doxa,

Your latest quote:

Since you have arrived on this Forum we have gotten a whole lot of your "personal opinions" (whatever they are worth) and very little Scripture. [Let's see now - the following "accusations" made by you in the above Post: I love "grudgingly"; I dismiss or ignore "righteous judgment"; I "insult" {because I speak the truth?}; I have a "an angry spirit"; you "could quote tons of Scripture right back at me" {BUT, you never do!}; I wouldn't say the things that I do, if my "Pastor" were sitting next to me {Oh, but I would, and I DO, because my PASTOR is living within me all of the time - I have no man over me or any other master, other than my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ - Oh, by the way - I am an elder/pastor! :)} And your final judgment concerning me - I'm a "hypocrite"! There's a whole lot of "judging" going on (in a very short space) by someone who professes to "love" everyone.] ;)

The vast majority of people on this Forum are MEN - not a bunch of "milk sops" or "effeminate wimps"!:confused: Real MEN say what they mean, and mean what they say. They don't "parse" their words in order not to "offend" other MEN.

Now, there are a hand full of women on this Forum, and while I'm sure they are just as welcome as the men, we are not going to let one or two women "set the tone" of the debate or discussion that takes place here (just because you don't like "plain talk").

If I won't allow my wife to "brow beat" me or "manipulate" me - I'm sure not going to let you or some other woman (a stranger no less) get away with telling me how I am to speak or conduct myself!:mad:

Your Post #1 > "Sword Wars" is a classic example of the difference between how men and women approach debate and how they conduct themselves. In your entire Post you moan and complain about "someone" who has hurt your "feelings" without ever being specific or identifying who it is. MEN (real MEN) don't "operate" that way.

Now you may not like it, and it may "upset" you, but "if you can't stand the heat" you can always get out of the kitchen. But, you're crying and complaining about how "unloving" I am isn't going to get you anywhere with me. I refuse to be "manipulated" by any woman. {I've raised three daughters - some of which may be older than you, and they tried every which way to "manipulate" me, without success I might add.} Right Jaebird? :D

If a woman comes on the Forum - she's basically in a man's world, and she will have to abide by our rules and act like a man, instead of fall back on a feminist device and play the "victim". Or make unfounded accusations about my "angry spirit" or that I am "unloving".

You don't know me - so how do you know if I am "unloving" or not? Hmmm? :eek: Why don't you ask my wife {Renee} of 47 years as to what I am truly like? Perhaps you have never met a man like me (who refuses to be "manipulated" by, and will not take "orders" from you). Perhaps our Humanist Western "culture" has persuaded you that it is perfectly OK to argue and debate with, and accuse and malign a Christian man who has been saved for 50 years; who has believed in the King James Bible as the Final Authority in all matters of faith and practice for over 40 years; who has been a serious student of the Scriptures for over 40 years; who has taught the Holy Bible in various churches for 40 years; and who has been an elder in a church for over 15 years.

Perhaps you were raised to disrespect men in that manner, but my wife and daughters have not been. Since you came on this Forum you have "lectured" us on our conduct, our speech, and our doctrine. It's one thing to take part in the debate, but it is quite another thing for a woman to "lecture" Christian men as to what they should or should not say; or how they should say it! {Basically, you are "out of order".}

I personally will not take it - NO not for a minute!:( If you want to take part in debate - fine, but don't tell me I have an "angry spirit" or I don't know how to "love" just because I don't measure up to your personal "opinion" as to how I should conduct myself!:confused: I withheld my comments on your "lecture" to me (Post #29 > AV1611 Forums > Doctrine > "Salvation = faith + works?" > Page #3 > "George, George, George") where you "lectured" me as if I were a CHILD!:mad:

You may get by with that kind of conduct around your home, but I don't have to put up with it - not for a minute!

Let's take a look at some comments you have made:
{Men don't understand: "you will perhaps realize what I meant". I have no idea what you "mean". I don't want "doctrine" from "off the top of" YOUR "HEAD!" I require "SOUND DOCTRINE" - from the Holy Scriptures.}

{I don't care a whit what MEN have done with the verse (or interpreted it) - WHAT DOES IT SAY?}
[1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.]

Now you can "dance around that verse and manipulate it; or take it out of context; or change it; or just ignore it - BUT, the verse either means what it SAYS or it doesn't. (I don't care how many MEN (or women) have messed with it). In the "context" of 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 {the "tongues" chapter of the Bible} - those verses either mean, that when it comes to "speaking in tongues" women should "keep silence in the churches" or that women shouldn't speak at all in the church. {Take your pick!}

You "profess" to believe the Bible, but when you come up against verses that run up against "feminist doctrine" you "chuck" the verse and claim that it can't be taken "literally". If you can do that here - WHY NOT ANYWHERE? Hmmmm? :confused: And the verse DOES NOT say: "women really have no place in church" - that's your "private interpretation"; that's you taking a verse and twisting and wresting it and in the end making it say something other than what it said!

There you go again! "privately interpreting" the Holy Scriptures and making them say what you want them to say.

Then why bother studying? Hmmm? Why does God command us to study His word if: "the exact intent or meaning has been lost." and we have no way of recovering it?

Are you questioning the "veracity" of the verses? Are you saying that maybe the verses don't even belong there? I thought you were a defender of the King James Bible? Where else can we safely "dispense" with Bible verses if they don't agree with our "private opinions"? Hmmm?

So this is how we are to "rightly divide the word of truth"? We inquire of the "commentators", and if they all don't "agree", then we can just decide for ourselves what God "meant" - since we are not going to accept what He said!
Ah now we come to the crux of the matter! The first problem is - you don't really believe the King James Bible {As it is written and preserved for us}; and the second problem is you won't accept what it SAYS - if it runs "contrary" to what you already believe; and third you will run to other "authorities" - commentators; "the Greek" (Which one?); your own "private interpretations; etc., rather than accept the word of God as it is written in the King James Bible!

There is so much false teaching and leaven in your Post #29 > Doctrine > "Salvation = faith + works?" > "George, George, George", that it would take me another full page to exposit all of it. However, I will list just one small part to illustrate my point:

What "kind" of "Salvation" is it - that OMITS part of THE GOSPEL? I can say unequivocally that it is NOT BIBLE SALVATION! :eek:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

Whatever you believed you did NOT believe the Gospel (according to the Scriptures). As a matter of fact, I could dissect practically every one of your Posts and demonstrate (over, and over, and over again) where you "personal opinions" not only don't line up with Scripture, but often runs contrary to it. But what's the use? :confused: You already know all there is to know; and refuse to take instruction (especially from men); and choose instead to try to "control" our speech and how we are to conduct ourselves on this Forum; and then "lecture" some of us if we don't "behave" just the way you want us to.

I leave you with this ADMONITION from the Apostle Paul (maybe you will accept these verses as being genuine.) :rolleyes:

1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Stephanos comments: "Sword Wars"
 

Stephanos,

This is NOT a church {It's practically impossible to judge who is a true brother (or sister) in Christ and who is a false brother (or sister). And please don't give us this "false humility" and "lack of charity" and "hospitality" bit - we've heard it all before.

Practically every time that someone shows up on this Forum and starts to spout "false doctrine" you flock to their side and encourage them to continue. Why do you have such an "affinity" for "false teaching" and so much "tolerance" towards false teachers - Just exactly what is your problem?

Doxa actually puts out more false teaching than you do! {If that's possible} :eek: It doesn't take take "courage" to spread "false doctrine" and "leaven" - it takes either "ignorance" or "pride" {take your pick!} :confused:

Doxa,

I would like to ask you a few simple questions.

Have you ever read the Bible cover to cover?

How long have you been saved?


Atlas

Staph,

I see you are still around and not one of those who got banned. I also see the you still have my Lord carrying the cross. Do you even understand some of our post? Also here you are again giving encouragement to false doctrine.

And no I am not misspelling your name.

Renee

George,

I'm sure you have noticed that Stephanos is a very mild WWJD, and likes to stir the pot so to speak. Anytime anyone tries to spread odd teaching or false doctrine he is right there to lend a helping hand to any apostate or misled person.

Everyone who believes something false is not an apostate. I thought could lose it for a time after I was saved. That is what I was taught, I had to learn that eternal security was Bible doctrine and not just an excuse for sinning. It took me time to learn this, however I did not fight with everyone when they gave me what the Bible said about the issue.

I was raised in a non denominational church. It was about half Baptist about half old time Methodist, not like 99% of the crazy non denominational churches today. My old pastor who has been dead about 15 years and is in heaven no doubt about that in my mind. He was a good man that loved the Lord and tried to do the best he could. He prayed for me everyday that I would be saved and was always very kind to me and my family. After he died I went to a local IFB church and that is where I got saved and straightened out on a few issues. Some folks are like my old pastor and just a little messed up on a few things, however some wolves and false teachers.

My old pastor believed the Bible and never questioned it. He always used the KJV and was opposed to all other what he called " new Bibles. " He also lead many to the Lord and built good solid church. Men like him who did the best they could and lived the best they could and worked for the Lord the best they could always proved to me they knew the Lord and were saved. he is why when I was taught the Bible at the IFB church believed it. He taught me to believe the Bible and do what it says, not what some man or college says. He believed the Bible and taught us to believe the Bible also.

We had foot washings once a year for example. You and I both know this is really not a church ordinance. I know why we had them. It was in the Bible. Just like when anointed sick folks with oil. He would always quote James 5:14 he would sometimes say preachers that had healing service we out of the Bible. He always said unless the sick person requested the prayer that it was out of order.


The word " him " was always talking about the sick person. My pastor did not understand that James was written for the Jews in the tribulation. I know that now, I had no idea about that then. he always did try to teach us the Bible for everything our church did. I have nothing but deep respect for men like Bro. Clyde Lane my old pastor. Those men may have missed the boat on a few issues, but men like him knew the Lord and did the best they could. He would never let anyone sale books, tapes or any item in our church. This was because of the money changers. When we had preachers drop by he would tell them they could not sale anything on church property. I myself agree with him on this issue to this day. I have never bought anything on any church property aver will. if I ever get called to preach and pastor a church I will hold this standard. To many people selling to much junk in our churches today. He tried to stick with the Bible on every issue he could find. I love and respect men like him. We need more men like him in the world today. Maybe he wrong on a few issues. Without him I do not think I'd be saved today. I am saying this from the bottom heart. I always respect men who try to preach and live by the Bible even if they are wrong on a few things.

There is a huge difference between men like my old pastor and many false teachers and deceivers. They are trying to get aways from the Bible, men like him always tried to stay in the Bible. They may not have always rightly divided the word, but they tried to say in the Bible.


Now what kind of person is Stephanos? I do not know if he is a wolf or just a man that is a wolf. I'm leaning towards wolf. Because he will agree with anyone that disagrees with the Bible. Those ears of his are getting more pointed every. I hope I am wrong on this issue. I hope Stephanos is not a wolf, but I would not let him near my hen house.


Atlas

Re: Atlas "Comments"
 

Aloha brother Atlas,

I couldn't agree more with you if I could - Amen and amen to all that you said.

I personally believe that some of the old time believers who may not have had all their doctrine down (like we do :() are going to be seated much closer to the Lord at the marriage supper of the Lamb {because of their Love for the Lord and their Faithfulness in what they did know}, than some of us "smart alec's" who know sooo much, but are lacking in Love and Faithfulness! That's why I try real hard not to judge many of the brethren that have "gone on" before us.

That's one of many reasons why I am thankful for brother Tim (though we disagree on some things) and brother Forrest (Who I think has a real "handle" on the importance of Christians "Loving God" - something that I know is definitely lacking in my "walk").

God bless you brother - I always enjoy your Posts. :)

Brother Atlas,
You mentioned about your "old pastor" and something about "wolves". Your post reminded me of:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
It made me wonder what would happen to my church when I grow old and depart. May I be found a faithful "overseer" (Acts 20:28).
Thanks!
Biblestudent

Aloha, Brother George!
I absolutely agree with you. A person who does not know or understand "that Christ died for our sins" does not know the gospel, and is therefore NOT SAVED.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: