the Place of a Woman
 

Hi all,

Greenbear and I were wondering what the consensus was on this forum about the below passage found in 1 Timothy.

"9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

1 Timothy 2:9-15

I would also like to add this similar passage to the discussion.

"34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

1 Corinthians 14:34,35

This isn't greenbear's favorite topic in the Bible but it is an extremely important one. I am very interested in what everybody's convictions are. I guess one of the big issues would be does this commandment apply in official church services or anytime 2 or more are together in His name which would include this chatboard. Sister Katie, thanks for starting this thread. :)

Jen

The key to this is understanding and observing the CONTEXT of the passage. The context is the Corinthian church which was noted for the chaos and lack of ORDER that was rampant in that assembly (v. 33) and the result was mass confusion. Paul was actually concerned that new Christians or visitors would think they were insane:

23 "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

Because of this lack of order, things were becoming counter-productive, there was no edification.

26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

40 "Let all things be done decently and in order".

It is in THIS CONTEXT of the chaotic Corinthian church that Paul makes the statements about women, and so it is apparent that there were women who were driving much of this confusion, perhaps trying to lead the services or even preach and assume leadership roles (we still see this problem happening in some churches today).

However it should be noted that Paul ALSO offered a situation when MEN should be silent in the church:

28 "But if there be no interpreter, let HIM keep silence in the church..."

So we have to keep things in context.

I want to clarify what I said above. I also believe those passages apply to a church assembly and they should definitely be followed by the church. Woman pastors are in rebellion against God as are their congregations. A woman should not usurp authority over the man or teach the man in the assembly. Women need to have a man as spiritual covering for their own protection. I believe it is for both a type, and that women are more easily swayed or deceived, and that women without spiritual covering are open targets for fallen angels, especially regarding false doctrines. So many "Christian" cults were started by women "prophets" or "teachers" who teach doctrines of demons and heresy and spiritism. Satan has a hay day with this type of rebellion and confusion.

So those passages aren't my least favorite parts of the Bible if correctly interpreted, in fact I am grateful that the Lord teaches us how to conduct ourselves and our affairs. Those passages become my least favorite when they are taken to mean that women are not allowed to study God's Word and actively participate in discussion with other believers, male and female. That would be a huge loss for me personally if those verses apply to any time christians gather informally (like this forum). With that said, I don't want to offend anybody on this board who has different convictions about the meaning of the above passages.

The Lord would have us submit ourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Although Paul is speaking about gentile christians eating meat sacrificed to idols, I think this principle holds for this situation as well:

1 Cor
8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Having given this topic some thought last night and this morning I don't forsee many people having a problem with female participation on the forum in all categories at least according to 1 Tim 2:9-15. I know men do like to get away from women sometimes!

This is my motto: Where I'm welcome is where I'll be.

RE: "the Place of a Woman "

Aloha sister katie ha-lakh,

I believe that rather than look for a "consensus" on this issue, we should be searching the Holy Scriptures to see WHAT God has to say about it. The following outline is the New Testament record on the Husband/Wife relationship - without ONE WORD of "comment" from yours truly:

If anyone knows of any more pertinent verses in the New Testament that relate to this subject I would be happy to add them to this study. :)

A thread all its own
 

1 Cor. 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

I suppose, I should make my thoughts clear as Greenbear has made hers. Of course, I go to the Word before I go to anyone else (and after). When I said "consensus" I suppose I meant your interpretations of the Word...backed up with verses of course.

I understand that God loves both men and women and that we have different roles. I believe that women are not to be preaching. I do, however get confused (by the way, His Word is never confusing, but our own thoughts confuse us :) ) as to what my role is/should be.

I try to take the Bible very literally. When I read that women were to keep silence in the church, I became fearful that I would have to sign my way out after the services:noidea: .

Then I thought, well, now that Christ has died, the temple is inside us and we can't be silent at all times so Paul must have simply meant that we couldn't preach or have authority over a man in the building where we gather to worship and we can still chat etc. afterward.

THEN I thought about the verse which speaks of asking our husbands at home if we were to learn something. I thought, this seems pretty clear that I should not talk to anyone inside the building, even about the service.

I dunno, talking about this again gets me all confused. AND on top of that, this summer, my employers might ask me to introduce pastors at the pulpit! I'm not comfortable with that. Isn't this what Paul is talking about? Please pray about this summer.

Re: "the Place of a Woman"
 

Aloha sister Katie ha-lakh,

I have commented on this subject before, but I will try to address your specific concerns with this Post.

Just for clarification:The word “church” in the Bible describes an assembly of people – not a building.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

There are 3 basic “interpretations” for these verses:

1. Women are not to speak at all in a church (an assembly – not a building).

2. Women are not to preach or teach God’s word in a church (i.e. speak to the assembly of Christians in regards to preaching or teaching God’s word).

3. Women are not to speak in tongues at all in a church (an assembly – not a building).

In regards to #3 - the entire Book of 1 Corinthians mentions the tongue (or tongues) twenty two (22) times. Fifteen (15) of those times occurs in Chapter 14 (called the “tongues” Chapter of the Bible). So we can be sure of one thing – as far as “speaking” in tongues is concerned: “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak”.

If you are familiar with the Charismatic (Pentecostal) churches, the vast majority of “tongues speaking” (in the churches) is done by women – in direct opposition to God’s commandment.

In regards to #2 – The Apostle Paul clearly stated:

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

These verses are not “hard” to understand. They may be “hard” for Western women “to take”, but they are NOT “hard” to understand.

As far as the Scriptures are concerned – the commandment is clear: “I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” In a Bible believing church (an assembly – not a building) – a woman is not to “teach”, or “usurp authority over” a man (or men).

I believe that a woman can do almost everything a man can do in a church (an assembly – not a building) she can pray, she can sing, she can praise God, she can say amen, etc. (because none of those things “usurp authority over the man”). What a woman is not allowed to do is to preach, or to teach - because both of those practices involve exercising “authority” over men.

In regards to #1 - It may be that that women are not to speak AT ALL in a church (I could be wrong in my understanding here). There have been churches in the past that have made this their practice. I believe the Amish (and possibly the Mennonites & Quakers) have followed this practice - which only goes to prove that observing strict “RULES” and “ORDINANCES” does not insure sound doctrine! :(

My understanding on this issue is that God does not treat saved women any different than saved men; except in this one area – in regards to women exercising authority over men (it’s out of God’s “order” of things – 1 Corinthians 11:3 & Ephesians 5:23).

Whenever I get to thinking that I am better than a woman (because I am a man) I think of those women who worshipped the Lord Jesus Christ and, with the exception of the Apostle John, had the courage to attend His crucifixion.

And in addition I am reminded of Fanny Crosby (blind from childhood), who is reported to have written approximately 6,000 Poems dedicated to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If you have ever sung a Hymn with the words written by Fanny Crosby you will know what I mean. If there is anything written that comes close to Scripture, the words that this woman wrote in honoring her Lord, come as close to Scripture as anything that I have ever read.

Now don’t you know, that when it comes to being “seated” at a “table” at the “Marriage Supper of The Lamb”, that that this woman is going to be a whole lot “closer” to the “Head table” (she may even be seated there), than I will be?

A woman can love God as much or more than a man; a woman can choose to obey God as much or more than a man; a woman can have as much or more “fruit” in her life as a man; a woman can perform as much or more “good works” as a man; a woman can pray, sing, and give praise to God as much or more than a man; - what a Christian woman is NOT “allowed” to do is – “exercise authority over the man”.

You would be surprised at how much “peace” there has been in our home (for 48 years), because my wife has “chosen” to obey this Scripture (99% of the time :)).

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

God has blessed me with a wife, who is as close to the Scriptural definition of the “perfect wife” [Proverbs 31:10-31], that I have seen in 69 years of life. She has been a true “helpmeet” and a faithful “companion” to me throughout our life together. And the manner in which she has lived her life has been a true Biblical “testimony” of what a (Christian) woman; and a (Christian) mother; and a (Christian) wife should be - to her family; our friends; our neighbors, and to the world.

Proverbs 18:22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

I did! And I have! :amen:

:amen: brother George

I am amazed how I get a lot of my questions answered here even before I ask them!

Thank you for your interpretations, examples straight from the scripture, and for your personal testimony Brother George. Be assured it has been of value to me.

I think I am still leaning to #1 of these basic interpretations. If we were allowed to speak (in the general sense), then why couldn't we ask the pastor or anyone else questions about the sermon? Why does the Bible specify:

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Corinthians 14:35

It seems to mean it is a shame to speak at all, not just preaching.

Actually, it seems quite clear to me now because 1 Corinthians 14:35 seems to speak of a regular female church-goer trying to learn FROM the pastor...not trying to preach herself.

If this is truly what is taught, I am fine with it, I just need to find a way to obey. If someone says "Hello", I do what? Should I move to a different church? I don't know any Christian churches where women don't speak at all.

This means a woman should either have long hair(longer than a man's), or she should wear some type of hat or covering on her head, when she is in church.
I used to wear a lacy veil over the back of my head, when in a local baptist church, and I got laughed at and stared at a lot.
So, the extremely short hair cuts on some women are not acceptable to God, right?

Just smile, and nod your head, then look away.
A woman should be careful to honor herself, and her marriage, especially if her husband does not attend with her.

I think these woman preachers and priests are an abomination.
Even my husband is disgusted by women preachers.
It's not natural for a woman to be the boss over a man. The woman needs to learn how to submit to her husband, unless, the husband tells her to do something completely unChristlike.

Right? This is a real land mine of a subject. We've been told since the 50's that women should not stay at home, that they should not be housewives, blah blah blah, and I for one, am a little confused about the proper care of a marriage.

Speaking of marriage, what do you all think about homosexual unions being called marriage?

I believe women are to keep their hair long, men are to keep theirs short. Also, I do not like the idea of calling a homosexual union "marriage." To tell you the truth, I don't even like homosexual "unions" but I guess they can do what they want and it'll never be a marriage in God's eyes.

I don't understand what some people think marriage is if they also don't have a problem with divorce. Is it somehow less likely to lose someone once you marry them...even if they don't believe in the God they are making a vow to/don't have a relationship with Someone (God) who will hold them accountable if they do decide to leave?

Where do we get our morals? God and His Word. Who has power over us and holds us accountable when we forget these morals? God and His Word. So why would you care what you do/what you do to others if you don't believe in a God?

This is one of the reasons why liberals hold on to evolution, and promote abortion, assisted suicide, and euthanasia. They do not want to believe people have eternal souls, nor do they feel people are made in the image of God.

Headcoverings.....
 

Good Morning from campsite in the Smoky Mountains,
I hope this note finds ye well.
I submit the context of 1 Cor. 11:1-16 points to a physical headcovering/veil instead of hair. “Long hair” really doesn’t make sense in the context. If it is just “hair” then praying men should all have their heads shaved. That doesn’t make much sense either. A physical headcovering seems to make the most sense in the context. History seems to favor this view as well. Virtually all commentators before 1800 wrote of a physical headcovering. I bet most of your Christian great-grandmothers wore hats or headcoverings to church. When men are asked to remove their hats for prayer at a ballgame or nascar race in 2009, think 1 Cor. 11.
My beautiful wife (who knows my position on the matter) doesn’t wear one very much and I don’t force her. She may wear one in private without my knowledge. Forced respect (honor v.5) is not really respect, like “earned” grace is not really grace. However, if I see a man praying with a hat on, I will probably (and have before) approach him because he is dishonoring Christ. Probably ignorantly, but nonetheless dishonoring my King. Further, orthodox Jewish men still pray with their heads covered. Christian women have worn headcoverings for the last 2000 years and continue to this day in obedience to 1 Cor. 11:1-16. I humbly submit it is the historically orthodox position.

Blessings to you and yours,
JOHN G

Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.