Eternal Security
 

Guys,

We are talking about this issue on a few other topics. I think we need to start our on topic on the subject of eternal security.

Here is the question.

How do you stay saved?

Do you keep yourself saved by your works or by the works of God?

Let me be the 1st to say I was saved by works. I will also say I am kept saved by works.


HIS WORKS.

My works are a filthy rags and my works could never save me or keep me saved. I believe in eternal security. I was saved by the works that Jesus Christ did for my salvation. I am also kept by saved by His works. God has done the works that I could never do. I accepted his works by faith. That is how I was saved. That is how I will stay saved.

I HAD NOTHING TOL DO WITH MY SALVATION OTHER THAN ACCEPTING IT!

Now there are only two things that can keep you saved. No matter what you believe, it must be one of the two.

1. The works of God.

2. The works of man.

Who's works are keeping you saved?


Atlas

Well put, Atlas.

Simply said, it depends on who saved you.

If you saved you, then it is up to you to keep you saved. :eek:

If God saved you, then it is up to Him to keep you saved. :)

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Guess which one is true!

Our sins were delt with on the cross. There we died with Jesus and we also were risen with Him to walk in newness of life. Rom. 6

However, we still have to deal with our carnal mind which must be renewed. Rom. 12:1-2,
Paul said in Phil. 2:12-13,

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

That word 'salvation' also means deliverence. We must change our way of thinking and alow the Holy Spirit to teach us of His ways. Thank God we have the Holy Spirit to teach us all things. As we allow ourselves to be teachable and trusting in the Lord He will lead us into all truth.

Dave

Bro. Tim,

God is the only one that can keep us faultless as sinful as man is. Even saved man. Look at what all Paul said about his flesh and how sinful it was. If Paul's flesh was that sinful and wicked you know how sinful my flesh is. If it was up to me to keep myself saved I'd go to hell for sure. My chances of me keeping myself saved are absolute zero. When I get to heaven I will get there for only one reason. That reason is the finished work of Jesus Christ that died for all of my sins. All of my sins were future sins at the time. he forgave them all. he died for everyone of my sins. That is how you and I will stand before God faultless.


Atlas

I am saved by grace through faith and kept that way by the blood of Jesus.

Many Christians, sadly, cannot say the same thing, simply because they are using the vatican inspired NIV and are in doubt as to their staying saved, and rely on their works to stay that way. A classic deception is in 2 Peter 3:17.

The Word of God says:

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

While the NIV distorts scripture this way:

2Pet 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

I dont know about you, but I fall from my own steadfastness several times every day, but my secure position is just that - secure, bought and paid for. I cannot fall from my secure position.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

fUNDY

I'm saved by Grace. I have dominion over sin by the power that resurrected Jesus(Holy Ghost)! If I sin and repent not I loose salvation and count blood of Jesus unholy thing. I have no excuse for sin and my good works manifest what the lord has done in me,transformation!! So no eternal security unless you do the will of God.And that will is walking Not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit od God.For as those who are led by spirit of God,those are children of God
Praise God!
Ev. Steve

Uh, what do you do about sins of ignorance? (Do a search for "sin" and "ignorance" in the Bible -- people sin and don't realize it.) Are you just hoping you haven't "missed" anything to repent for?

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

So can we do the will of God while grieving the Spirit?
Paul is addressing saved brethren here, and explains in the verses before and subsequent verse what grieves the Spirit. These folks were obviously doing things they should not have done, grieving the Spirit. I think that would identify not being led by the Spirit. Did they lose their salvation? Were they ever sealed by the Spirit? Notice how long they are sealed.

Sounds like you have a "Jesus saved me, but I keep me there" slant on the doctrine of salvation Evstevemd.

How many ours a day do you carry out the will of God? Going by what you say, slip up in this area for only 1 second in the day and you lose your salvation and have to be saved all over again. What if you die in that 1 second during the day that you have lost your salvation?

This is just catholic works doctrine...pure and simple.


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Once saved, always saved.

Fundy

You are not sinless by any stretch of the imagination - you sin everyday.

1) How fast do you need to repent before you lose your salvation? How much sin is acceptable to God before you are lost again? Even pride is a sin, lustful or foolish thoughts, doubt, worrying - like everyone else, you have sinned in these areas - are these any more acceptable to God than outward sins? No, in fact He seems to be more against spiritual sins, sins of the heart (as they will eventually affect the life). How about your words? Have you always spoke edifying words to the brethren, ever lost your temper, ever judged someone's motives?

Well, this passage states you cannot ALWAYS do the will of God - you are still a sinner, with a sin nature in you - if you deny that you are calling God a liar and deceiving yourself.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If even a just (saved) man can sin, then every single saint should have lost their salvation somewhere along the way because they have all sinned after they got saved. How much sin will God tolerate before He casts you aside? He states He chastises EVERY child of His. He speaks, spanks, scourges, and then separates by death (which is His last step - taking them home to Heaven).

Jerry,

I think you fixed that point.


:D


Atlas

Refer the red lettered above
I don't agree with your principle of salvation!
Look this and will help

Be careful, the link you gave preaches a doctrine that uses a similar approach to scripture as the JW's. It has a ring of truth about it, but upon closer examination, its conclusions depend on ignoring vast amounts of scripture along with the twisting of selected verses in an effort to validate their position.
Many times the literal and most obvious meaning of a selected verse is ignored and an illogical cross reference is used to create another meaning.

You ignored a question that I put to you earlier...cant you answer it?

I will ask it again...How many ours a day do you carry out the will of God? Going by what you say, slip up in this area for even 1 second in the day and you lose your salvation and have to be saved all over again. What if you die in that 1 second during the day that you have lost your salvation?

By having to submit yourself to a 24/7 effort to carry out the will of God, you are very simply creating a works based gospel.

Fundy

A good example of this is this quote from the editor of the web site that you recommend:

QUOTE "Doesn't the Scripture say that if we keep on confessing Christ as Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead, we will be saved?"

No, it does not say that!! the language of the Bible clearly indicates that this is a one off event...nowhere are we told to "keep on confessing" in order to be saved.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You view of salvation is tainted by a false gospel



Fundy

I've only made it through the opening paragraphs so far (I'm not sure if I'm going to persevere through the rest :().

What are the denominations that believe in insecure salvation? I'd like to see how much more godly their lives are. I believe Methodists are one, are they the model of what a church and Christians should be?

Wait a second, doesn't that contradict the above argument, and this argument (describing the doctrine of eternal security)?
In fact the idea that a true born again Christian would want to please God and not backslide to the extent of denying Him was an argument I was using to defend the doctrine of eternal security. I reckon I must be confused.

I remember someone else addressing a Pentacostal preacher who thought he needed to preach insecurity even though he no longer believed in it (sorry, I can find the post off-hand). Sometimes it seems it's just not expedient to teach the Bible.

I've had to deal with habitual sin in my life. I don't think I'm the only one, and it's not an easy thing. I actually think it would have been a lot harder if I had thought God was continually unsaving me the whole time. Even if I did immediately master all habitual sins, what about Fundy's question? What's the longest you've ever gone without sin?

The quote I was referring to was by Brother Tim. I'm not sure how to link to it in the original thread but I'll try this http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...86&postcount=3

evstevemd,

You know what I mean by works. The works Jesus did on the cross. The finished work of Christ, IE: Death, Blood and Resurrection from the dead. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. He bleed for me and died for me. His blood covered my sin. he died so I would not have to take part of the 2nd death. He got out of that tomb on the 3rd day and lived again. That is what made salvation possible all salvation possible. That is what paid my sin debt. It was a bill that I could not pay. HIS WORKS saved me. I am saved by what HE did for me. If you are saved. You as saved by what he did on the cross, if not you are not saved.

After seeing your link, it does look very close to the JW's and their twisted view of salvation.


Atlas

Saved by works is only correct if we mean Christ's works. Maintaining salvation isn't by works, either. For example:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Contrasted with:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We maintain salvation the same way we got it. Our "works" were in excepting. And, our works prove our salvation, not bring it about.

When a person "departs from the faith" as in 1st Timothy 4:1, they have walked away from the gift of God. They can't walk away from a place they never were. It isn't talking about refusing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it's departing from it. A person can't depart from a place they are not at.

The phrase, "they were never saved in the first place" isn't accurate to say. If that were true, how could anyone every really know they are saved? God gives us the free gift of salvation with assurance:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

And, we know we have faith by the works we do:

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and that is God's plan.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

On our part, we abide in Him to maintain our salvation. So as not to slip away, or lose faith.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

We work with God, and He works with us.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

So, we aren't saved or maintained by our works.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

But, it is by faith:

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Wow, I miss your point here, it seems you are meshing a lot of scripture together, kinda confusing..

Let me ask you this, do you believe a true believer can loose their salvation ?

I'm very sorrow that these brethren missed my point,
I'm not very good in expressing but God will help me.
1. You are save ONLY by faith through Jesus

2.You are being kept in salvation through leading of the Spirit of God
Example; when He prompts you of any sin you have to repent instantly

3. If you sin and stay in sin you loose salvation!
suppose I'm save and I commit fornication, and die inn that sin
I will go to hell.

Ask for any ambiguity

Ev. Steve :p

May Be I missunderstood you atlas,
What do you mean by etrnal security?
do you mean once saved always saved?
or let me ask this way
Can you in anyway loose your salvation?

honestly, with love
Ev. Steve

Is that from the book of Second Opinions or from the book of Suppositions? I can't seem to find it. Do all the examples of believers in the Bible sinning show that their repentance was instant? No. I seem to recall that King David was backslidden for almost a year when he got his sin right.

More quotes from those same books! Can you give me the exact Scripture that teaches that? Seeing as EVERY single believer in the history of the world will still sin until taken home to Heaven, we are all in trouble.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Well, hope you never die the second after you have a lustful thought, a moment of pride, or saying an angry word.

Beloved57,

I would suspect that what I wrote is unclear to you. That's usually the case when someone is "ensconced" in their thinking. That isn't an insult, just a fact of life.

Ok Brothers,
Tell me How do you keep saved?
What are your responsibilities as believer?
what is your difference from Heathen?
what is the work of Holy Spirit in believers?

With Love
Ev. Steve :p

Pastor Mikie,

I read you lengthy post. If I understand it correctly, you are making my point that the doctrine of eternal security as some believe it is very extreme.

Are you also saying that if you can receive Jesus Christ of your own free will, then you can reject Him just the same. I tend to agree. The question is why would one want to? I don't know, but I've watched it happen.

I know of a pastor who was a sound Biblical teacher, evangelist and as far as anyone could tell, a solid Christian. During the course of a few years, a deacon in the church he was pastoring was being very unchristian like towards his daughter. He left the church, left his wife, became a homosexual and "departed from the faith" because he "gave head to a seducing spirit (among other things)". Is this man still Heaven bound? Those who believe in extreme eternal security say he is, others who believe that way say, "he was never truly saved in the first place".

I think this man walked away from the truth, believed a lie and became a reprobate and is on his way to hell except he repent. And if he wasn't saved in the first place, then what was he?

We disagree with the meaning of Hebrews 6 overall; yet isn't it very clear when it says
Or is what the Bible says just too extreme to accept?

Then please answer sir..

This passage in hebrews is not describing a true regenerated believer, but a stoney heart hearer as in matt 13..

The hebrews were going through some tough times and persection for the word of God..

in matt 13:

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

The writer of hebrews was just describing the action of this type here, not a true believer at all..

In fact, he gives his true assesment of the true believer in vs 9

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

He is saying to the true believers, we are persuaded better things regarding you, even though we give this illustration..

Unsaved. (How many options are there?)

Tell me How do you keep saved?

I don't - God keeps me saved by His power, as the Bible clearly declares. Even when I am faithless, He is faithful.

What are your responsibilities as believer?

Lots - too numerous to name. Start from Genesis and go to Revelation - whatever wasn't fulfilled or done away with is our responsibility.

what is your difference from Heathen?

Now I am a child of God, joint heir with the Son of God, adopted by the Father, born again. I have also passed from death unto life, from the kingdom of Satan and darkness to the kingdom of God and light, no longer lost but found, no longer going to perish after this life but will dwell forever with God, eternal life not the second death.

what is the work of Holy Spirit in believers?

To regenerate those who believe. Tell me, how do you become unadopted, unborn, unsaved, unsealed by God?

God The Holy Spirit regenerates in order to belieivng. Hoe else can a dead man believe ? Save he first is made alive and anew..

I don't.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The first question is the salient one for this topic. The other questions are important but have nothing to do with the permanent nature of salvation.

Hi Jeff,

You beat me to the punch, mate. Thats the exact same answer that came to my mind when I read that post by Revangelist.

Is the logic that hard to follow????

Fundy

Beloved57, It isn't that you don't understand, it's that you don't accept it. I read Pastor Mikie's posts and understand it. I happen to agree with him. I'm safe in assuming you don't.

To anyone who agrees with eternal security as has been posted here, you are certainly welcomed to. But I say you are incorrect. The doctrine makes no sense. We have free will to accept Jesus Christ and His gift of salvation. So you expect me to believe now that I'm a Christian, I no longer have free will? That's absurd. I can choose to be saved. That's it. Now I'm stuck. You are quoting all the Scriptures that say we are eternally secure. You are ignoring or re-interpreting all the Scriptures that teach something different. I'm not even suggesting any true Christian would want to. You are saying it's impossible to lose your salvation. I was taught eternal security as a young Christian. I believed it, too. But there was a nagging question about all the people I've seen in my life time since I was taught eternal security just go back into sin and ruin their lives and you conveniently say they were never truly saved in the first place. That's illogical. I've found Scriptures that tell us to be careful, don't be negligent, abide with God, draw nigh unto God. And I've found Scriptures as Pastor Mikie has pointed out and somehow you say they aren't referring to Christians.

If any of you backslide or fall into sin or turn away from God or depart from the faith, believing the extreme doctrine of eternal security won't help you. You crying out to a holy God in repentance before you breath your last breath will be the only hope of salvation you have. Eternal security has most of it's adherents in the USA. In many foreign countries they don't believe that way. In the USA, the church is a mess. The fruit speaks for itself.

Sorry for sounding too passionate here. I don't mean to be so upset sounding. I think I'm just frustrated because very clear explanations have been given and not understood or accepted. I don't mean you have to agree with them, I just wish they were understood. Some of you come across a little frustrated as well. Maybe that is a good sign to go on to something else. This subject has been argued for a very long time with no resolution in sight (meaning before it's been discussed here).

a person who trust in themselves is the reason why you are insecure, your salvation rests upon human merit.

But, The real Jesus christ, has saved all his people from their sins by his death..believest thou this ?

QUOTE from revangelist..."If any of you backslide or fall into sin or turn away from God or depart from the faith, believing the extreme doctrine of eternal security won't help you. You crying out to a holy God in repentance before you breath your last breath will be the only hope of salvation you have." end quote.

What an absurd statement for a christian to make. This is just catholic doctrine...pure and simple.

QUOTE "So you expect me to believe now that I'm a Christian, I no longer have free will? That's absurd. I can choose to be saved. That's it. Now I'm stuck." END QUOTE

I believe I am now seeing what your problem is. You have a problem with submitting yourself totally to GODS will. You dont want to give up YOU OWN free will, even if the exchange for it is eternal security..... your will is more important than God's will. If you consider being "stuck" with salvation as undesirable...I feel sorry for you.



Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Fundy

No - you have turned the Scriptures upside down! The Bible teaches when we respond to the Gospel, when we receive Christ, when we believe - THEN He regenerates us. That is seen CLEARLY in the following passages:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

First comes our response to the truth, then comes regeneration - being born again.

No it doesnt, it teaches regeneration before faith..a dead man cannot believe, faith is a fruit of the Spirit of God..

Gal 5:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The key is they heard the word of truth, a spiritually dead person cannot hear christ words..

jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

One has to be spiritually alive to hear a spiritual message, so your point is invalid..

Agreed Fundy. They WILL not submit themselves to the authority of the precise meaning of the words of God.

How do they present the Gospel to the perishing when they can't assure the drug addict, gambler, fornicator, that if he falls, his sins are no longer forgiven? The prospect of guilt they impose on the sinner is unconscionably devoid of grace. The incipient step to hell is ever looming.

His yoke is easy, and His burden is light