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chette777 03-15-2008 08:13 AM

I am not making doctrine I just have fun taking what little facts (Verses) and then putting them together to surmise a possible eternity past Senerio of how Lucifer fell and what was he up too. the main theme of the OT is a Throne and kingdom and a land on htis earth.

Earth was important to God to lace his promises form eternity past for his Sons throne. Lucifer had a throne. it was not given to him it was His throne that he wanted to put in place of Jesus Christ (anti-Christ) see the theme will work out in the next two dispensations.

But I would never force any of this stuff into Doctrine. Just fun thinking and concideration. I hope youall do the same.

chette777 03-15-2008 08:17 AM

Jerry,

Your belief that Lucifer fell after the six day or three days of creation has not biblical warrant. it was not at the time of Christ either. Satan is a post fall name of Lucifer.

and there is a bases for a earth before the six days for Genesis 1:1 says it was in existence.

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 376)

This ends the debate, if you accept the Bible:
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

....Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.

The passage above refers to Abraham in Genesis 15.

Now here are some passage some may REFUSE to believe:

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The problem is solved, not by hyperdispensationalizing, but by rightly dividing the word of truth.

James is written to the TWELVE tribes, but not to the ONE BODY (to whom writes Paul).
James said that faith alone cannot "save" nor make one "justified", if there is no works; Paul says a man can be "justified by faith" alone.

Paul writes to the Church and used Genesis 15 to show that it is POSSIBLE to have imputed righteousness as well as justification by faith alone without works in this age.
But James writes to the Twelve Tribes and says faith has to be "perfected" (completed) by works to "save" a man and make him "justified" BEFORE GOD as was Abraham. (There was no other men present when Abraham offered Isaac BEFORE GOD.)

Using this approach, there was NO adding, NO subtracting, NO twisting, NO hyperdispensationalizing. Just RIGHTLY DIVIDING.:)

Biblestudent 03-15-2008 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 1763)
But I would never force any of this stuff into Doctrine. Just fun thinking and concideration. I hope youall do the same.

We'll do that. I would like to apologize a little bit if I seem to be forceful or too "reactive", that's the way I am. But I count everyone here as brothers, especially everyone who believes strongly in the KJB. I respect everyone's opinions, although I express my reactions forcefully at times. Thanks!

Jeff 03-15-2008 08:40 PM

Just a couple of points then I'm done (unless you press me :)).

Take verses/passages in context. What are the passages referring to? What's being talked about? Does it really apply to what I want it to apply to? Is there any other application than what I'm trying to make out of it? Are there other passages that may contradict what I think it may be saying? Don't try to "read between the lines" or get too involved in word games. Of course there are deeper concepts in the Scriptures that we'll never fathom the depths of, and that's why we need the help of the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what we need, yet I can't think of an example where the clearer meaning is wrong.

Lastly, don't get the spiritual confused with the physical.

I'm sure as soon as I say I know something as a fact that isn't clearly stated in the Bible I'll be proven wrong.

Stvvv1611 03-22-2008 04:58 PM

Not so fast! Part 3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 1688)
Great - maybe a bit more studying in the Word of God will show you where you are wrong. All the best.

You’re getting awful quiet there Jerry…let me up the ante! Originally, I told you I would immediately concede this debate if you would show just one case of an OT saint getting ‘saved’, justified or made righteous in accordance to Rom 10:9-10; in other words… looking to the cross. You didn’t. Tell you what; being the nice guy that I am, I’ll throw in Matthew, Mark & Luke along with the 39 books of the OT. Show me where the cross is being preached and received as such for salvation and again, I’ll immediately concede this debate. Let me be clear; I’m not asking to be shown where a prophet or king was being expected; these are a given; an actual attempt to make Christ king failed (Jn 6:14-15). Jerry, don’t you find it interesting that the two disciples the Lord appeared to on the way to Emmaus were sadden at the death of Jesus because they trusted it was He who was going to redeem Israel (Lk 24:21), as prophesied by Zacharias (Lk 1:68)? Hmmm… they must have had a different perception of redemption then of that from ours (Rom 3:24)?! :rolleyes:

Now to the purpose of this post and that is to prove exactly the opposite of your view that ‘salvation’ ‘was not by the works of the law’.

“Abraham, David, and all OT believers were saved by faith, by grace - not by the works of the Law.” Post #15

Last post I demonstrated that righteousness ‘by faith’ was a biblical principle from the very beginning of the creation of man. I’m going to continue proving ‘by faith’ as relating to Israel’s righteousness under the Mosaic covenant. While the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen 12:1-3) covenanted a great nation and land, the Mosaic Covenant covenanted for righteousness (which includes forgiveness of sins) based on obedience, as so goes ‘by faith’. We will return to here latter.

Jerry…how can you deny the direct implication found in the following two verses regarding the righteousness of God via the law?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness

Jerry, the verses following each of these, in their context, are only as relevant now as these were relevant then! Paul gives us a launching pad to further investigate this ‘righteousness of God’ relating to the law within his own testimony given in Phil 3:4-6:

Philip 3:4-6 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Jerry…I’ll itemize Paul’s pedigree here for you:

5 Circumcised the eighth day
of the stock of Israel
of the tribe of Benjamin
an Hebrew of the Hebrews
as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church
touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless

Let’s zero in on that last point of Paul’s resume! Did you know that Paul was living ‘by faith’ while same time persecuting the church! Before thinking to critical of that statement, consider the following:

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Where do you suppose this concept of the ‘righteousness which is in the law’ comes from Jerry?

The law served numerous purposes:
1. The oracles/commandments of the LORD to and for the Jew (Ac 7:38; Rom 2:1-2)
2. A ruler for sin (Rom 3:20)
3. A spokesman of things to come (Mt 11:13; Lk 24:44)
4. A schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Gal 3:24)
And last, but not least…Jerry!
5. The law was the means of the righteousness of God which I’ll now prove…

A good and simple definition of righteousness is found in its root, ‘right’. Righteousness is simply being right or doing right as opposed to being wrong or doing wrong. The righteousness of God was conveyed through three avenues in the OT, each testified unequivocally by works:

1st Avenue – The LORD Himself

Judges 5:11 They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the LORD, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the LORD go down to the gates.
1 Samuel 12:7 Now therefore stand still, that I may reason with you before the LORD of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which he did to you and to your fathers.
Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Psalms 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Daniel 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Psalms 36:10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart.
Psalms 40:8-10 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. 10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Psalms 119:137 Righteous art thou, O LORD, and upright are thy judgments.

2nd Avenue – The Law (Moral, Civil & Ceremonial)

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Deuteronomy 33:19 They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand.
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psalms 51:19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Psalms 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psalms 119:105-106 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 106 I have sworn, and I will perform it, that I will keep thy righteous judgments.
Psalms 119:123 Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.
Psalms 119:138-144 138 Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful. 139 My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. 140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it. 141 I am small and despised: yet do not I forget thy precepts. 142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. 143 Trouble and anguish have taken hold on me: yet thy commandments are my delights. 144 The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word for all thy commandments are righteousness.

3rd Avenue – The actions of the righteous; under the OT the distinction between the righteous and the wicked was their works based on the LORD’s commandments.

Psalms 15:1-2 1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? 2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
Psalms 18:20-26 20 The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me. 21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. 22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me. 23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity. 24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight. 25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright; 26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
Psalms 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psalms 106:30-31 30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore.
Proverbs 11:5-6 5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. 6 The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own naughtiness.
Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Jerry…just a short story before continuing along this avenue. Shortly after becoming a Christian I witnessed to a Mennonite farmer and the issue of eternal security came up. Not accepting my viewpoint he sent me in to debate his wife who immediately went to several passages in Ezekiel to prove one could fall ‘from grace’; the four chapters oftened used to prove such are: 4; 14; 18 & 33. These chapters show the result of the righteous turning away from their righteousness to wickedness and the wicked turning away from their wickedness to righteousness, all the while the nation cries foul play on God's behalf...14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Jerry…Israel’s response to the LORD’s offer in establishing the Mosaic Covenant was Exodus 19:8 “And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.” And Jerry…the purpose of this law is very clear…

Deut 6:23-25 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers (Abrahamic Covenant). 24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Jerry…did ya notice how clearly the ‘faith of God’ (Rom 3:1-3) is presented in that last passage?! …for our good always that he might preserve us alive as it is at this day.

How about another short story Jerry? Back in the 80’s I sat in a SS class in which a new pastor was also sitting while being instructed by the adult SS teacher. We were in Romans and came across 2:13:

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I’ll never forget the reaction of this young man…I swear he never saw this passage before and though he was a staunch believer in the KJV, this verse simply didn’t fit into his theology on OT justification. Already having an understanding of 2Tim 2:15, I tried to put my 2 cents in, but he’d have nothing to do with it! Jerry…isn’t it a coincidence that this passage is part of Paul’s argument leading up to Roman’s 4 concerning Abraham & David, the passage you took completely out of context in trying to prove OT justification without works! Jerry, did you ever read this verse before? Perhaps you’ve also noticed that I haven’t made distinction between the words ‘justification’ and ‘righteousness’ in these posts. Reason being is I see that they’re interrelated. Add to Rom 2:13, the following:

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Hmmmm…didn’t see this one coming; did ya?! Ouch! :eek:

Consider this…though referred to as the lively oracles of God (Ac 7:38), the one thing the law couldn’t do was provide life:

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. (Paul speaking in present tense)

Jerry, this is where man came into play and the following verse further helps define ‘by faith’:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Faith here speaks of one’s faithfulness, as the ‘faith of God’ speaks of God’s faithfulness which is a characteristic of the righteousness of God (Ps 40:10)! Jerry… the absolute only way the law had life was when man lived it and this is exactly what is expressed by Moses (Lev 18;5) and quoted by Paul when contrasting two extreme means in which God provided righteousness to mankind…then and now.

Romans 10:5-6 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith…(next post)

The marvels of the KJV shine through again when recognizing why the ‘his’ is dropped in context when Paul references Hab 2:4 in Galanians:

Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by ___ faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Again Paul speaking in present tense)

Jerry…I’ll let you muse over that one for a while; I need to finish this post.

Why did Israel fail under law, the very means in which God provided righteousness? The answer is contained in the following two verses:

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Hebrews 4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Israel’s sins and rebellion became so putrefying that even their sacrifices became an abomination to God and their appointed feasts He hated (Isa 1:1-20). What was God’s resolve for Judah…cease to do evil and learn to do well, which are ingredients of ‘by faith’! Israel then reminds me of Catholicism…eat the wafer/body and slurp the cup/blood and live like Hades (oops; wrong version) during the week. Or like Protestantism, get baptized, join the church, attend Sundays (or at least Easter & Christmas) and live same as before mention. Professing Christianity today is equivalent to the Jews religion at the time of Christ (Gal 1:13-14).

Deduction: In the context of Romans 3:30 (Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision ‘by faith’, and uncircumcision ‘through faith’.), the provision of the righteousness of God to that Jew under law was via works/obedience! You’re wrong.

Jerry, in my next post (unless I have to deal with some objection of yours) I will turn the corner and deal with God’s current provision of righteousness by way of contrast.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

jerry 03-22-2008 05:29 PM

There you go:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I believe this is referring to Genesis 22, where God told Abraham to offer his son, which Hebrews 11 indicates is a pretty clear type of Christ.

George 03-22-2008 06:36 PM

To: Stvvv1611
God bless brother,

I have certainly enjoyed all 3 of your posts. Although the Gospel of the Grace of God is "simple" (by design) and getting "saved" is not hard (requiring only belief on our part) - The actual "operation" that takes place in the believer is far more complex than most of us can discern or understand.

Adam was different than all of his descendants (Sinless before the fall).

The natural man (all of mankind) is the "default" result of Adam's fall (we are all born with a Sinful Nature)

The Old Testament saint was saved (soul) - but not one of his attributes was changed. [Attributes = Body-Soul-Spirit (Our Substance) & Heart-Mind-Conscience (Our Faculties)]

The New Testament saint is saved (soul) - his spirit has been quickened; he has the Holy Spirit living in him; he has the mind of Christ; BUT he still has the flesh; a weak conscience; a wicked heart (still "deceitful above all things"); and a mind that is susceptible to corruption. (2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The Glorified saint will have every one of his attributes changed with the exception of his soul (his very essence). He'll have a new body; a new spirit (which we have now); a new heart (which we don't have now - contrary to the popular teaching); and Christ's Mind (which we have now - but often fail to "arm" ourselves with or "let" it become effective in our lives).

The common "thread" that runs through all of God's people (saints - before the flood & after the flood; before the Law & during the Law) is FAITH. FAITH in God's words; FAITH in God's promises; FAITH in God's being able to perform His covenants; FAITH IN GOD! Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

To "think" that any Old Testament saint understood and believed the Gospel of the Grace of God is ludicrous. They "believed" God and: Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

What did Abraham believe God for? The Gospel of the Grace of God? Or did he believe God for His promises concerning the land; or God's promise concerning Sarah having a son; or in God's promise to give the land to Abraham's heirs; or in God being able to raise Abraham's son from the dead?

Abraham believed God for a lot of things - and had God presented the "Gospel" to him, I believe that he would have believed God for It, but He didn't. And so, even though in God's mind, He may have been looking forward to the Cross and Jesus' Sacrifice - Abraham believed God for what He said and revealed to him, which certainly wasn't the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Keep em' coming brother, it's a real pleasure to see someone who knows how to wield the "Sword"

George

conwaytim 03-22-2008 08:08 PM

Bro. Steve,
It was just so refreshing to read that post, because scripture is being rightly divided! Scripture makes perfect sense when this is done! It becomes very simple, and we can't accept that. We want it to be difficult. It's too hard just to take God at His Word! It's much easier to work for something than to accept it freely. Humankind takes pride in the fact that something is gotten by hard work! (At least this is the way it used to be!)

Stvvv1611 03-28-2008 07:49 PM

Not so fast! Part 4
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 2103)
There you go:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

I believe this is referring to Genesis 22, where God told Abraham to offer his son, which Hebrews 11 indicates is a pretty clear type of Christ.

There you go… What? :confused:

I gave you 39 books of the OT plus Matthew, Mark and Luke totaling 42 books of the bible to show me just one case of someone looking to the cross for salvation and you come up with Gal 3:8, with a; “There you go:”

Am I to guess to what exactly you’re pointing out in this verse? Are you again trying to make something out of the scripture ‘foreseeing’ something? Haven’t I already proved in previous posts that prophecy is a given! Are you reading something into the word ‘gospel’ that isn’t there? I already addressed the ‘gospel’ issue in a previous post and you never made one comment or challenge on it!

Jerry…here’s exactly why you haven’t, can’t or won’t fess up to not being able to come up with a single case of an OT saint looking to the cross for salvation, it contradicts and cuts to the very roots of typical Baptist theology! You are a typical Baptist graduate of the…

Baptist Theological Seminary of Non-Dispensational Truth
Baptist Theology 101
  • Thou shalt not be dispensational
  • Thou shalt not see more than one gospel in the scriptures
  • Thou shalt not accept the Lord’s choice of Matthias as the 12th apostle; Paul is.
  • Thou shalt make light of Pauline distinctives
  • Thou shalt trace thy roots to John the (a) Baptist
  • Thou shalt claim Baptist a non denomination

You do trace you’re Baptist roots to John the Baptist…right Jerry? You’re not a member of the Baptist Bride…are you?

Let’s review…and I’m not going to let you get away with something as I did before!

Luke 18:31-34 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
A. 34 And they understood none of these things
B. and this saying was hid from them,
C. neither knew they the things which were spoken
Jerry…do you comprehend the above passage!? Before the crucifixion, the Lord explicitly laid out before the apostles what was to be accomplished at Jerusalem as prophesied by the prophets! Jerry…do you comprehend what is meant by ‘neither knew they the things which were spoken’ and not just that, but what was just spoken was intentional ‘hid’ from them! See that Jerry?

Just in case there yet remains doubt, however possible, here’s one more passage, of several I could have listed, after the crucifixion regarding Peter and John as they approach the tomb:

John 20:8-9 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Jerry…I showed you this same fact in a previous post of before and after the crucifixion and you ignored it completely; you said nothing while still claiming an OT saint looked to the cross for salvation! Not this time! Perhaps this verse in a different color will shed a different light?

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Hmmm…how about that verse in this color…?

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

To believe that an OT saint got ‘saved’ looking to the cross when Christ’s own disciples didn’t get it after 3 years ministering with Him is incredible! Oh yes…I threw Matthew, Mark and Luke in there too; of course we do realize the time setting of these 3 books…don’t we?

Before I erase the circle that you’ve been running around in and paint you into a corner of a box let’s again, as before, consider 1Cor 15:1-4:

1 Cor. 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jerry…four critical points:

1. The Corinthians received a gospel from Paul by which they’re saved
2. Paul received his gospel from Christ
3. This gospel was prophesied
4. The components of Paul’s gospel are the death, burial & resurrection of Christ

And...Paul is very explicit about where he did and did not get his gospel from! He got it from Christ…not the 12 apostles!

Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

There’s the painted four cornered box…now to stick your Baptist theology in a corner…

Again…as pointed out in a previous post that you ignored…all the while the elements of what Paul calls his gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ were hid from Peter and company, Peter and company were preaching a gospel that they too received from the Lord Jesus!

Luke 9:1-6 1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

Jerry…doesn’t bible sense tell you that if the twelve were oblivious to the elements of what we deem the gospel today then obviously what they received from the Lord Jesus, that was being received by their recipients (Jews), aren’t the same?!

Jerry…if you chose to respond to this post then I beg of you to show two things:
1. The components of that kingdom gospel…to preach the kingdom of God
2. Exactly how the recipients of that gospel where justified in God’s eyes

I’ve taken a guess to why you responded with Gal 3:8 which proved nothing! But, did you take note to the link between Gal 3:8 and Rom 3:30…the text that you fail (as most do) in seeing the distinction Paul makes between God’s justification of the Jew ‘by faith’ and the Gentile ‘through faith’ and then proves his case via Abraham and David in chapter 4…which you take out of context?

See if you can find this link?

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

See it?

My previous posts dealt with the 'faith of God' and 'faith of man' under the OT. My next post, in turning the corner, will deal with ‘the faith of Christ’:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

jerry 03-28-2008 08:10 PM

I know when to not get involved in endless debates by someone who is more stuck on their theories than the truth. I quoted Galatians because it clearly stated Abraham believed the Gospel. There is only one Gospel of salvation. If you don't believe that, you need to go back and reread Galatians 1. Anyone believes any other gospel, and they are damned.

Jeff 03-28-2008 09:22 PM

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

browilder61 03-31-2008 03:03 AM

WRONG! where do you see "righteously angry"?

browilder61 03-31-2008 03:42 AM

WOW!! Hey man you have the same name as me, good name huh? Its about time someone who knows how to rightly divide the AV 1611 and let it roar!! Please keep the post coming. One thing about Abraham, is that although he was under grace, before the law, he was not justified until years later( Gen 22),after he got his imputed righteousness in Gen 15:6 - look up James 2:21,24. We got our justification the instant we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ ( John 1:12, Rom 4:5) Abraham, and any other Old Testament saint/patriarch, was not born again. Psalm 22:30-31 told Nicodemus that it could not take place until AFTER John 3:14. Abraham didn't go to the 3rd Heaven, nor did any of the other OT saints. They were in Paradise, or Abrahams bosom, that is where Abel, Joseph, Daniel, Jacob etc. went when they died. That is where Christ went after the crucifixion ( Eph 4:8-10 Matt 27:52, 12:40), and led them out of there. Now because of 1 Cor 15:1-4, every born again child of God goes straight to the 3rd Heaven( Phil 1:23, 2 Tim 4:8).

jerry 03-31-2008 10:32 AM

Romans 3 clearly teaches he was justified when Genesis 15:6 says he was:

Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was justified before he was circumcised, before Isaac was born:

Romans 4:9-13 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Luke 03-31-2008 05:04 PM

I think a big problem people have with this "different" salvation in different dispensations is a lack of understanding regarding hell and the atonement.

When Old testament saints died, where did they go? Did they go to be with God? Of course not, they couldn't, because their sins had not been washed away. They went to "paradise", "abraham's bosom", and waited there until Jesus Christ came after dying on the cross.

When New testament church age saints die, where do they go? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We go to heaven with Jesus Christ.

Now, we are both saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. However, in order for a New Testament saint to be saved by the blood, all he has to do is Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

An old testament saint does not know Jesus Christ. They have no permanent sacrifice. All they have is the Law. If they keep the Law, BY FAITH IN GOD (not perfection), then they would go to paradise, where their sins would soon be cleansed. However, if they deliberately disobeyed God, despite his many proofs of his power (he even LIVED AMONGST them in the tabernacle in the wilderness), they would go to hell.

Stvvv1611 03-31-2008 06:42 PM

Not so fast! Part 5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 2461)
I know when to not get involved in endless debates by someone who is more stuck on their theories than the truth. I quoted Galatians because it clearly stated Abraham believed the Gospel. There is only one Gospel of salvation. If you don't believe that, you need to go back and reread Galatians 1. Anyone believes any other gospel, and they are damned.

Romans 3 clearly teaches he was justified when Genesis 15:6 says he was:

Romans 4:1-3 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Jerry…you’re still missing Paul’s argument concerning Abraham in Romans 4. Paul is distinguishing between a justification based on a work element under OT economy from a justification based on a belief element alone which was to come upon the Gentile. Paul makes various contrasts in the first three chapters, that I’ve tried my best to show in previous posts, and then drives home his point using unique experiences regarding both Abraham and David. Both Abraham and David illustrate something different; things common to justification for the Gentile today. I promise not to make this an endless debate, but do need one more post after this to effectively deal with Abraham and David as presented in Romans 4.

As pointed out before…your position, that God justified the Jew the same way that God planned and justifies the Gentile today, is identical to that of the NIV.

Romans 3:30 (KJV) 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 3:30 (NIV) 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

No jerry… God justifying the ‘uncircumcision (Gentile) through faith’ is not the same as God justifying ‘the circumcision (Jew) by faith! They’re NOT ‘same faith’!! In my next post I’ll show you exactly when and how Abraham became the father of both Jew and Gentile in context of Romans 4. I’ll also show you how David fits in. Jerry…I’m not trying to prove you wrong; I’m trying to prove the scripture right!

I will again prove the perversion of the NIV as I turn my attention to the ‘faith of Christ’ in this post. Till now, I’ve focused on the faith of God and faith of man in the OT. How about a sub title for this post before giving definitions…by way of review?

FAITH OF GODFAITH OF MANFAITH OF CHRIST

Faith of God = speaks to God’s credence; God’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Faith of Man = speaks to man’s credence; his faithfulness in obedience to God.

Habakkuk 2:4 …but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Jerry…this is exactly what Paul is pointing out in Romans 3:30 stating that; ‘God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith’.

Let’s use the ‘blood’ principle by way of illustrating this point; Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

A. The LORD shed blood for Adam & Eve

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

B. Abel offered blood for his own sin…

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

C. Job offered blood for the sins of his family

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

D. Job’s ‘friends’ offered blood

Job 42:8-9 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job.

E. Abraham was offering blood between Gen 12 & 14

Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 13:4 Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD.

F. Israel offered blood yet in Egypt

Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

G. Priests offered blood for the sins of Israel under Mosaic Law once a year

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD…34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

And…blood was offered daily for the sins of individuals!

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Jerry…please make special note to this ‘by faith’ and ‘blood’ principle because it is going to weigh in heavily when dealing with David in Romans 4! The Mosaic law covenanted for righteousness and forgiveness of sin… but, not for today!

Now, in turning the corner…

Romans 3:21-22 (KJV) 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Before defining the ‘faith of Christ’, let’s look once again at the perversion of the NIV in this and other verses regarding the ‘faith of Christ’:

Romans 3:22 (KJV) 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:22 (NIV) 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Philippians 3:9 (KJV) 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Philippians 3:9 (NIV) 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 (NIV) 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

The NIV absolutely perverts a doctrinal contrast Paul is making! Paul seeks to make the following contrast that the NIV destroys:

The ‘faith of God’ < > The ‘faith of Christ’
The righteousness of God with law < > The righteousness of God through Christ
Justification by works < > Justification by believing

Now to define the ‘faith of Christ’:

Faith of Christ = speaks to Christ’s credence; Christ’s trustworthiness and faithfulness to be believable based on His accomplishments at the cross on our behalf.

The law was dead! Man had to provide the ‘life’ through obedience. Christ is alive and we’re ‘found in Him’ complete (Col 2:9-10)! Amen!

In each of the compared verses above the NIV doubles on ‘believing in Christ’ and emphasizes a believing in Christ where Paul is making a dogmatic contrast between faithful man under a dead law for righteousness to that of a faithful Christ unto believing men for righteousness!

Paul most definitely puts an emphasis on believing and that emphasis is put on believing in the ‘faith of Christ’!

Romans 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 (KJV) 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Present truth!)

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. … 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jerry…notice the emphases on believing?! Abraham (Rom 4) will come into play on that point.

There’s a terrific four point outline in 1Cor 1:30 that demonstrates the contrast between Moses/Israel/law and Christ:

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Here it is broken down in outline form…

1 Cor. 1:30
1. But of him,…of God
2. are ye in Christ Jesus
3. who…is made unto us:

A. wisdom – As in a crossword puzzle, the death burial and resurrection was hid in the Law of Moses, and in the Psalms, and in the prophets (as was hid to the 12 Apostles also; Lk 18:34; 24:44-46); 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

B. and righteousness – As the law was to Israel for righteousness and forgiveness of sin, so… Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

C. and sanctification – As Israel was baptized (consecrated/sanctified; 1Cor 10:1-2) unto Moses by the LORD (EX 14:21-31), so we are baptized (consecrated/sanctified) by the Spirit into Christ (1Cor 12:13).

D. and redemption – As the LORD redeemed Israel (Ex 6:6; 15:13) with an outstretched arm after the sacrificing the firstborn of Egypt (Ex 13:15), so we’ve been redeemed by Christ’s death and shed blood to deliver us from this present evil world (Gal 1:4; Tit 2:14; 1Pet 1:18-19).

Finally…my goal; next post will deal with Abraham and David (Rom 4) in proper context of Rom 3:29-30.

Romans 3:29-30 (KJV) 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I’m sure I’ll start off with an introduction to how vitally important it is in making and understanding this distinction between justification of Jew and Gentile by God. Not making this distinction is the foundation of many denominations and so many other controversial and divisive issues are resolved when such distinction is made.

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

kstsells 04-01-2008 04:37 AM

Stvvv1611 - I did not realize how the new versions perverted that phrase, "faith of Christ" in so many places. What robbery! The first time I even took note of that phrase brought me to tears realizing that it is not MY faith but the faith of my LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ that I must live by. Gal. 2:20b "And the life that I now live in the flesh I live BY the faith OF the Son of God."

The day that hit home, I did a quick scan of the other "versions" to see how they had tried to ruin it. It was the very part that spoke to me the most (by the faith OF the Son of God) that they had changed. I am learing more and more that these specific changes are not by chance or mistake but by a very calculating enemy of God's holy Word.

I would like to hear some discussion on the topic of the verses that you quoted in which it talks about the faith OF Jesus. Am I reading it wrong or are we to believe that we are to rely on Christ's faith and not our own. Sometimes my faith is so weak. I hope I am reading this right and that I AM to rely on His faith. Comments please!

Biblestudent 04-01-2008 09:37 AM

In our dialect (Hiligaynon), "of" and "in" are both translated sa. Thank God for the Final Authority in English! Keep it coming, Stvvv1611.

pbiwolski 04-01-2008 11:10 AM

Last summer I found myself in an uncomfortable and unprofitable situation.

I was going door to door soulwinning in our community with the "new guy" when he turned out to be Jerry (well, that wasn't his name, but it was his stripe). His theory of Abraham and salvation,etc. was being presented to a lost soul. He preached that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness...then suggested that anyone (Buddist, Muslim, anybody) who will wholly believe in God for salvation (Abraham his example) will be saved. His words were "even if they have never heard the name of Jesus."

Aaaaahhh!!! What could I do? I wanted to kick him, smack his mouth with my Bible, anything to shut him up. I tried to discreetly interject and shift the approach while "saving face" to the sinner, but the "new guy" was too focused. I continued praying...and eventually the door was shut. The next few minutes brought sharp contention and we had to drop it for the spirit was getting bad.

This nightmare was the result of the teaching being refuted in this thread. It's a shame, but it being taught all over the place.
MY NOTE: The OT saints were looking for the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 63, not the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 53. AMEN!

Beth 04-01-2008 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 2739)
Last summer I found myself in an uncomfortable and unprofitable situation.

I was going door to door soulwinning in our community with the "new guy" when he turned out to be Jerry (well, that wasn't his name, but it was his stripe). His theory of Abraham and salvation,etc. was being presented to a lost soul. He preached that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness...then suggested that anyone (Buddist, Muslim, anybody) who will wholly believe in God for salvation (Abraham his example) will be saved. His words were "even if they have never heard the name of Jesus."

Aaaaahhh!!! What could I do? I wanted to kick him, smack his mouth with my Bible, anything to shut him up. I tried to discreetly interject and shift the approach while "saving face" to the sinner, but the "new guy" was too focused. I continued praying...and eventually the door was shut. The next few minutes brought sharp contention and we had to drop it for the spirit was getting bad.

This nightmare was the result of the teaching being refuted in this thread. It's a shame, but it being taught all over the place.
MY NOTE: The OT saints were looking for the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 63, not the bloody Redeemer in Isaiah 53. AMEN!

From reading on this forum, I'm positive Jerry would not say that a person can be saved even if they had never heard the name Jesus.

You certainly can't argue with God can you?
Quote:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Do you understand that in the Bible we have a progressive revelation? Abraham believed God and God's promises of a future messiah. Looking forward to the cross.

Today, we look back to the cross. So, yes of course only through Jesus and His atoning work on the cross can we be saved. And yes, if a Buddhist or Muslim or anyone were to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus they also would be saved. This is saving faith in God. Repentance and faith in Christ go hand in hand.

Beth 04-01-2008 12:19 PM

Quote:

John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Quote:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Quote:

Luke 24:44-45 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Ephesians 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

pbiwolski 04-01-2008 12:24 PM

I also doubt that Jerry would make such a statement.

It seems however that you missed the point of my quote you placed in bold. The "new guy" was taught that Abraham was "looking forward to the cross," and knowing that the name of Jesus was not yet revealed, he put two and two together. The sum was his foolish statement (quoted earlier) applied to a hellbound sinner in 2007.
Therefore, "this nightmare was the result of the teaching (above) being refuted in this thread."

Beth 04-01-2008 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 2747)
I also doubt that Jerry would make such a statement.

It seems however that you missed the point of my quote you placed in bold. The "new guy" was taught that Abraham was "looking forward to the cross," and knowing that the name of Jesus was not yet revealed, he put two and two together. The sum was his foolish statement (quoted earlier) applied to a hellbound sinner in 2007.
Therefore, "this nightmare was the result of the teaching (above) being refuted in this thread."

Unfortunately the way you worded this was offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 2739)
Last summer I found myself in an uncomfortable and unprofitable situation.

I was going door to door soulwinning in our community with the "new guy" when he turned out to be Jerry (well, that wasn't his name, but it was his stripe). His theory of Abraham and salvation,etc. was being presented to a lost soul. He preached that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness...then suggested that anyone (Buddist, Muslim, anybody) who will wholly believe in God for salvation (Abraham his example) will be saved. His words were "even if they have never heard the name of Jesus."


Pastor Mikie 04-01-2008 02:34 PM

Someone has posted a website: http://www.petersruckman.com/ accusing Dr. Ruckman of some awful things. I read through it and honestly find it difficult to believe. Dr. Ruckman has been a little "caustic" at times, and being married 3 times hasn't helped his image any, but to accuse him of these kinds of atrocities sounds vindictive. Yikes!

pbiwolski 04-02-2008 06:57 AM

I've read it too recently, and I agree, it sounds like this guy has issues. Maybe Dr. Ruckman didn't shake his hand at a meeting! If I recall, he's prepared to unleash even more dirty laundry if his demands are not met. The funny part to me was the reference to undercover Christians in cabs and a sting operation. What a loser! (I hope that this also was not worded offensively!)

George 04-02-2008 03:54 PM

Re: Brother Ruckman
 
Talk about SLANDER! This is the most vicious site I have every seen about any "Christian". You'll notice that the "coward" never identifies himself!

I wouldn't believe one word that this person (or persons) says - since he doesn't have the guts to have a web site where you can identify the accuser!

Beth 04-02-2008 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timothy (Post 756)
So... let's say that my believing wife leaves me who is a a believer too, even though I don't want the divorce, and she wants it anyway so she can further an adulterous reltionship (not to say Ruckman's wives were as I do not knwo anything about it and frankly, it's none of my business), then what am I to do? Am I in sin for the divorce? (Just a scenario)

The way my Pastor explains it is: you would encourage your wife to participate in Church counseling and if after the counsel she still will not repent or if she refuses counsel altogether, then the Church is to treat her as a Pagan and then it would apply as it would when an unbelieving spouse leaves, let her leave. You are not bound.
Quote:

Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

George 04-02-2008 05:55 PM

We know where and who is the "accuser" of the brethren!
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Debau 04-02-2008 07:04 PM

I would like to know if some of these accusations can be substantiated or refuted. Specifically, was Mr. Ruckman involved in guerilla warfare if he said he was?
I'll contain this post here and allude to the other "hot" thread, but it would be beneficial to have his so called aberrant doctrines outlined and substantiated or not, in print, and let Scripture be the judge. There are no secrets from God, and Mr. Ruckman has some rights of privacy, but I believe it is incumbent on every pastor to answer his critics. Has he? He is a pastor isn't he? I hope these allegations are false. On both these threads I have not seen vindication of either side in tangible referenced print.

kstsells 04-03-2008 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beth (Post 2826)
The way my Pastor explains it is: you would encourage your wife to participate in Church counseling and if after the counsel she still will not repent or if she refuses counsel altogether, then the Church is to treat her as a Pagan and then it would apply as it would when an unbelieving spouse leaves, let her leave. You are not bound.

It really doesn't matter what your preacher teaches. What really matters is "What does God's Word say!".

kstsells 04-03-2008 07:52 AM

As to Ruckman... I am TOTALLY 110% KJV all the way and I appreciate his stand on that. BUT I would rather not have someone like him on our side. He is very offensive and the Bible tells us in II Timothy 2:24
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,". From the very first time I saw Ruckman on a video I was just turned off by him. Something just told me that he may not be all he was professing to be. Then later by chance I heard about his multiple marriages. Then it made sense to me why someone that I know who is really a good Christian, thinks marriage, divorce and remarriage is ok. He is a HUGE Ruckman fan. He says that the Bible just means that we are to only be married to one woman at a time when it says "the husband of one wife".

So you see, Ruckman has justified the sin in his own life by preaching that it is ok and that he was the wounded one, the offended one in his past marriages. And in doing this he has made it OK for thousands of his followers. Which is a great example of why we should be followers of Jesus Christ and not man. I do not advocate divorce but I could NEVER stay married to a man like Ruckman ;) He is insulting and abrasive. I am so thankful for the man God gave me. And I am thankful for His Word, that it will stand FOREVER and that He is the Defender and Keeper of it!

Beth 04-03-2008 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kstsells (Post 2882)
It really doesn't matter what your preacher teaches. What really matters is "What does God's Word say!".

Did you not see that I quoted the scripture my Pastor used to back up that statement?
Quote:

Matthew 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
and then since we are to treat them as an unbeliever, this verse comes into play.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
When a dispute arises between two believers, Church discipline must be put into practice. Why would this be different for two believers that are married?

My Pastor didn't just make this statement off the cuff. He preached a series on this topic. Many Churches don't even talk about the subject, they just don't know what to do about divorce, so they just say it's a sin. At times it seems to be the only unforgivable sin.

If anyone would like to listen to the series go to

http://www.spokanebaptist.com/audio.html
in sermons by topic, go to divorce and re-marriage.

btw, I'm not defending Ruckman here. I have no idea about the details of his divorce or divorces?? I was simply attempting to address the question made re: what do you do when a believing spouse departs.

chette777 04-04-2008 05:43 AM

may I suggest that you all read Grace by Lewis Sperry Shafer and if you like also his book True Evangelism, and his article the pure Gospel. if everyone could understand in this dispensation it is Belief, Faith, alone on JESUS CHRIST.

The last post I read onthe guy sharing beleive on God. that is not the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of God or the Gospel of Jesus Christ. any other gospel preached or added too will put one in a place of receiving a curse. Anathema Paul called it in Galatians

chette777 04-04-2008 05:47 AM

Hey Guys,

I see you'al using alot of scripture that is kingdom age doctrine and trying to force it into the church age. Matthew 18 is a kingdom Doctrine. If you use it today you will find it will produce the wrong fruit. GRACE is the KEY. Please if I can encourage you all to just buy a copy. Hey I will email you a zip copy of Grace By Lewis Sperry Chafer. You read through a few times so youcan grasp it. then try applying to your life and ministries. it has revolutionized mine and has provoked Satan and his emmesaries to attack us as wel. but the furit is to the GLory of Jesus Christ

jerry 04-04-2008 06:14 AM

Matthew 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Sounds like Matthew 18 contains CHURCH doctrine.

pbiwolski 04-04-2008 11:16 AM

Matthew 18, and the book of Matthew for that matter, is absolutely loaded with "kingdom doctrine." But Jerry's right, it contains instructions to a local church.
Matt. 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do you think verse 20 applies only to the kingdom, or today?

Beth 04-04-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry (Post 2966)
Sounds like Matthew 18 contains CHURCH doctrine.

That's what I thought also. Matthew 18 is used in the guidance of Church discipline. along with other scripture of that same topic.

browilder61 04-04-2008 04:43 PM

1Cr 7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

1Cr 7:28 BUT AND IF THOU MARRY,THOU HAST NOT SINNED; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

If you are divorced ( "loosed") as a result of the spouse (wife or husband) leaving you, and the leaving party has no intentions on returning, then if you re-marry, according to these verses, you have NOT sinned. Moreover, 1Cr 7:10 ¶ And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband - the WIFE is not to depart from the HUSBAND

jerry 04-04-2008 04:46 PM

That verse fits in with the overall context - and the overall context teaches that the only way a Christian is free in a divorce is when the non-Christian leaves the marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:12-15 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

There is a big difference between what it says above and what some others are teaching (that a Christian is not bound by ANY divorce).


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