God's wrath cometh upon the children of disobedience. If they are clearly drinking it despite the fact that God's Word says no, they are in disobedience.

When people have the attitude that they are going to just deny the clear command, they are yielding theirselves to another master.

Brother Born, I've always thought His "wrath" is reserved for the unbeliever, His correction and chastisement for the child of God.

One reason I haven't taken part in this discussion (of wine) is because I was raised by an alcoholic Mother. I do not care to be lectured on the evils of alcohol by anyone - - - nor do I care to inflict my personal pain on anyone in the guise of "doctrine."

I would be very much surprised if BC did not take his name from a very fine book, Born Crucified, by L. E. Maxwell.

It's on Dr. Ruckman's "Recommended Reading" list!

http://baptist1611.phpbb3now.com/use...s/laughi10.gif

Reply to brother Forrest's Post #56
 

Aloha brother Forrest,

My answer to your first question: People were "saved" by believing God {for whatever He revealed to them} and obeying (acting on) His word (oral or written). {But He didn't reveal the "Gospel" (that Paul preached) to them. I will have more to say in another Post.}

My answer to your second question: The Prophets did not know the "Gospel" that Paul preached and neither did any of the people who heard them, and so their "salvation" was based on them believing what God revealed to them and their obeying whatever commands that He required of them under the different Covenants. Their "salvation" was not predicated on them "understanding" every word that the Prophets "spoke", their "salvation" was based on believing whatever words God revealed unto them and obeying those words. {None of us understands everything in God's Holy word. Our salvation is not based on us understanding every word that God has written - it is based on whatever truth that God has revealed unto each us from His word. }

Thusly: I do not believe that: "they knew the Christ which God revealed through the Prophets".

You ask: "Did they believe?" Yes, they believed God, but they did NOT know Paul's "Gospel" or the Christ of that Gospel.

You asked: "And was this their salvation?" I don't believe so. Neither the Prophets, nor the people who heard them knew Paul's "Gospel" or the Christ of that Gospel.

Adam was commanded not to eat - just one fruit! When he disobeyed = Judgment & then Grace - There was No "faith" involved on Adam's part in his "salvation" (Pure Mercy & Grace!). Noah was commanded to build an ark! He obeyed and built that boat (by faith), but what would have happened had he failed to obey God's command and though he had "faith", he failed to build the ark?

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah was NOT "saved" by believing the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ (that Paul preached). Noah was "saved" (and "his house") because when God warned him of the Flood that was coming ("things not seen as yet"), he believed God's warning (that is - what God had revealed unto him about the coming Flood) and, though he couldn't SEE any physical evidence of the Flood, by faith he obeyed God and built the Ark. {Believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (Paul's Gospel) had nothing to do with his "salvation". And by the way, his "salvation" was from the Flood (a physical catastrophe caused by God), not from Hell - that's another matter all together.}

The "believing" is the same under every Covenant, but the "faith" is not - That is why it is so important for Bible believers to "rightly divide" between "BELIEF" and "FAITH".

God has required of everyone under every Covenant and in every "age" that they "BELIEVE" His words {Oral or Written} and OBEY them. We are very fortunate that under the "New" Covenant: All we have to do to get saved is to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, . . . ." {When WE "BELIEVE" in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and "RECEIVE" Him as our personal Saviour, we have done (obeyed) all that God has required of us (under the "New" Covenant) to get saved} - But, it hasn't always been the "same" for those people (living under different "Covenants") who lived before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; and it won't be the same for those who are left after we are translated out of this world.

I sincerely hope this may be of some help to you.

Actually, God will chastise the saved. But one who stubbornly rebels against God's clear commands, is that one truly of God?

Jesus said many who thought they were of Christ would one day find out that they were not of Christ at all. (Matthew 7:24)

Scripture warns of false teachers that will arise these last days and will lead people astray. How many are led astray by the falsehood that God allows them to consume alcohol? The very drink they claim that God allows kills tens of thousands a year.

My Bible tells me that woe is ahead for the one that puts a bottle to his neighbor's lips. Yet, we know God's people are not appointed to wrath.

So you tell me.... is God going to say 'Well done, thou good and faithful servant' to the one who ignores His clear command for abstinence and deceives many by telling them it is ok to drink?

In light of this verse,
I would say God is indeed angry with the wicked every day and His wrath will come upon them just as His Word declares.

Born Crucified is also on Moody's list. As a matter of fact, it is put out by Moody Press... where I got it from.

An excellent book. In it, Maxwell explains how the flesh is crucified and the lusts thereof. Funny how many want to feed the flesh the poison that God tells His children to avoid. (apparently, they have not crucified the flesh)

It has helped. "If you're saved and ya know it clap your hands!" I'm clapping, Brother George!

I must confess, brother, I have been stubborn and I have rebelled. And God chastened, because He loves me and desired the fruit of righteousness.

None of us really deserve "well done". But by the precious blood of Christ, I am cleansed, forgiven, justified, redeemed, and declared righteous. WHAT A SAVIOUR!!!

I've done much worse than drink alcohol after salvation.

But here you go, since you seem to think, like others who have come here before you, that you can live a life of sinless perfection and full submission to God -

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Is there any time in your Christian life when you have known that it would have been God's will to do one thing, but you did another, or did nothing at all. The Bible says IT IS SIN - DISOBEDIENCE.

You are saved, not sinless.

I agree. But there is a difference in willful disobedience, and doing that which we would not do.

Paul, in Romans 7:19 stated that the evil he would not, that he did. This is unwillful sin.

But, look at Hebrews 10:26, 27
There is a fearful looking for of judgment that the one who sins willfully can expect. And that judgment is one of fiery indignation. Sounds pretty harsh, eh?

When God reveals something to me through the reading of His Word or the listening to those called of God and checking their words with the Word of God, when He reveals to me I need to get rid of something, I get rid of it.

I do not willfully disobey God, no.

Then you are a better man than Paul

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Compare that with the verse I gave you from James, and you will see that Paul admits to willfully being disobedient to God at times.

Hebrews 10, and Hebrews 6, have been taken out of context more often than "God is love."

I trust that we are not going to be warned about losing our salvation....

No, I am no better than Paul. I did not say I do not sin. I fail miserably from time to time, but when God reveals sin, I repent and I confess. Then I ask Him to help me to serve Him more.

Notice in verse 19 that the evil Paul did was never intentional. He did not want to sin, but the flesh wars against the spirit, and unfortunately, sometimes prevails.

One cannot lose one's Salvation. Salvation is a done deal and as a gift of God is without repentance.

But, David wrote in the Psalms, If I regard iniquity in mine heart the Lord will not hear me. Some that have made a profession with their lips do not possess Christ in their hearts because of their unwillingness to give up the sins God tries to reveal they are holding on to. They love the sin more than the Savior. Jesus wants the preeminence in man's life. He is not willing to share you with satan any more than you would want to share your wife with another man.

The rich man went away sad... not because he was rich, but because of his love for those riches. Sin separates man from God.

God knows our hearts. He knows the hidden things of our hearts. That which we are unwilling to quit when His Word and not just His Word, but His Spirit tells us it is sin.

I have noticed something in 39 years of the Christian life. There seem to be two types of Christian: those who are concerned about reaching a lost and dying world, and those who would rather spend their time criticizing and gossiping about their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Guess which group God tends to use?

:)

Re: Brother Luke
 

Ahh, brother Luke, now your getting close!:)

So many of these Christians that come here are so concerned and occupied with the "sins" of the "flesh" - when if we looked to our hearts; and our minds; and our consciences; and our spirits - the "flesh" wouldn't have a chance. But this body of sin keeps getting in the way of obeying God according to His Holy word.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Herein is the "secret" - Don't keep fighting with flesh. (You cannot win), instead we must:

Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. [Proverbs 4:23]

Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Hebrews 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:


John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

This is where the Christian life (and walk) is at. This is what its all about - NOT about "meat" or "drink"; or observing days, months, times, and years. NOT the WEAK and BEGGARLY ELEMENTS or all of the TRADITIONS OF MEN.

Most of the Posts by these Christians that are so concerned about DO NOT, TOUCH NOT, DRINK NOT, are "CARNAL", and benefit no one and there is no Profit to be gained from them. That is why I will not engage carnal Christians for any length of time. Our life is not in these fleshly observances, ordinances, and Laws. We have someone so much better than all of them! :)

The ones who tell the truth whether on internet boards or on the streets.

The Word of God warns us to abhor that which is evil and to cleave that which is good.

Reckon we need to tear those verses out of the Word of God since so many label us to be carnal because we preach the same things.

Amazing!

Liberty in Christ does not mean liberty to disobey His Word.

This thread is all over the map. Seems a couple of people here can't help but ride their hobby horse regardless of where they are...

As to this salvation "the same" thing -- I'd like someone who believes that Old Testament saints had faith in Jesus Christ before Christ was born to explain to me how it is that Christ's own disciples -- who knew he was the Messiah -- could be "saved" when even after Christ's resurrection they did not believe in it:

Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

In fact, it took sight, not faith, for them to believe that Christ rose from the dead.

Now, if someone reads this, and still says Old Testament saints were "looking ahead to the cross," they'll first have to explain to me why Peter wouldn't even look back at it!

Man, that's good thinking, and well said. Thanks.

Is telling marital status a requirement for posting on this forum? If anybody would have read BC's testimony they would have known. We were keeping NO secrets...if you don't ask, you don't get answers. It's that simple!
We didn't come on this forum to start heated debates about Peter Ruckman. As a matter of fact, I was registered here in February, 2008 and only posted 10 posts, none of which were about Peter Ruckman. I took a break from forums for a few months and only 2 weeks ago started posting back in here. Almost immediately I was attacked by the "Ruckman" brigade. Your reply to my email, George, was anything but gracious. Neither my husband or I came on here with an agenda. You seem to be the one with all the accusations and judgmental comments. It's like a swimming in a pool of great white sharks in here.
God is no respecter of persons....why are you?
Does Peter Ruckman not go by the name of Dr. Peter S. Ruckman? Many call him "the Doc"? Pastors do have a higher "calling" and God has given them standards to live by....read Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus. Calling someone Rev. doesn't mean we worship the person, or hold him up on a pedestal.

BTW, how come in almost every post I've read, you brag (yes, I said brag) that you have been saved 50 years?
My husband posted his testimony to "share" with others...but all you are doing is picking it apart piece by piece. Do you find pleasure in critiquing someone's life? Who's being judgmental here? hmmmmmm
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

God wants 100% commitment...that includes our heart.

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me: (Psalms 66:18)

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)
How about telling us YOUR religious background, George? Got any baggage you picked up along the way? All we know is that you've been saved 50 years. By the tenure of your posts, I believe you still have some baggage of your own.

You have absolutely no right to judge BC for giving up that child when the mother of that child was killed. He was unsaved and just 17 years old earning $75 a week. Your situation does not even compare to his...BC did the very best thing for that child by giving him to his grandparents. He was not in a position to raise a child by himself. So quit the finger pointing here. You are dead wrong.
Well, you are definitely being a "gnat-strainer"...I am a born again Jew and there IS such a person as a "born again Jewish chaplain" I have met many. A Jew is a Jew by ethnicity...not religion. Many Jews are only Jews by birth/ethnicity...most of the unsaved Jews living in Israel proclaim themselves to be atheists. Plus, most American Jews in the United States are non-practicing Jews (they only practice their "religion" of Judaism twice a year). Ethnicity doesn't change. I am a member of the Body of Christ...spiritually, I am a Christian...but by birth I am a Jew and will remain so until I die.
]
This means that there is no differences in the Body of Christ. We are "one new man" in Christ Jesus both Jews and Gentiles who are born again.

I disagree.
George, share with us where you go to church. hmmmmmm BC posted that testimony 2 weeks ago. If you had bothered to look instead of attacking us because we are not of the "Ruckman" crowd, you would have known sooner. The information was there, but you failed to look...that's not BC's fault.
The name of the church was in his testimony for all to see.

We did not come on this forum with an agenda...the agenda was already existing. As far as I'm concerned, it is the "Ruckman" crowd who is doing most of the un-Christlike attacking. I've never been on a forum board with this many "great white sharks" before. You guys go for the jugular, don't you?

You've done everything BUT avoid BC and myself.

Here's the problem: Born Crucified dragged Ruckman into at least two threads now when nobody else mentioned Ruckman. Seems like Ruckman is always on his mind. There is no "Ruckman Brigade" here.

Don't agree with me? You must be a Ruckmanite.

Don't think that Christians are commanded to abstian from all alcohol? Then you're a Ruckmanite! (Never mind the fact that Ruckman has the same position as you do on wine.)

Don't need the Hebrew to understand English? Ruckman!

Ruckman, Ruckman, Ruckman!

Does he live in your closet? Is the poor old man stuck under your bed, whispering "advanced revelation" in your dreams?

Come ON!

Yes, the name "Ruckman" splits churches, and splits forums. But it's not Dr. Ruckman's followers that do it; it's those who have an almost pathological hatred for him, usually because they've absorbed the lies of his enemies.

(I refer to "Dr." Ruckman because he has an earned Doctorate from Bob Jones University - - - which is not my favorite school, but he worked hard for the degree, unlike so many pastors who have "honorary" doctorates because they've sent so many of their young people to their favorite school.) I do not refer to him, or anyone else, as "Reverend." That's humanistic, man-exalting claptrap. God is no respecter of persons, to be sure, but He probably appreciates common courtesy. "Honor to whom honor is due," you might say.)

As for the "Ruckman Brigade," I was, until tonight, unaware that there were any PBI graduates here, other than myself. We are certainly not in collusion.

I disagree with Ruckman on quite a few things, but I will not give his enemies the satisfaction of naming them; and, anyway, none of them involve Bible doctrine.

I have been well and truly blessed with many fine teachers and pastors during my life. But I will simply say what I have said elsewhere: that, by the sheer, undeserved grace of God, Ruckman is the wisest, and the kindest, man I have ever met. For this, all glory goes to God, and none to the man himself - - - except insofar as he has allowed himself to be used.

Now, if this discussion has reached its logical terminus, may we talk about Jesus for awhile?

Guys,

As far as any " Ruckman Brigade " goes, let me make a few statements about this issue.

Three men have taught me more about the Bible than anyone.

1. Rev. Clyde Lane

My very first pastor. He taught me to believe the Bible was God's word and I needed to be saved. This man was not right about everything, but he was a wonderful starting place for me. He and my Daddy are the sole reasons why I got saved. He prayed for me everyday and that is why the Holy Ghost would not let me go. I got saved after he died, I'll tank him one day face to face for praying for my soul. His and Daddy's prayers kept me out of hell. Bro. Lane believed the Bible till the day he died and never meet or even knew who was Ruckman as far as I know.

2. Dr. Carl T. Lackey

He helped finish the job that Bro. Lane started on, he helped get me saved. After my salvation, he helped me learn the correct Bible doctrines. He also taught me how to be a soul winner and run bus rout and teach a Sunday school class. His last words to me friend of mine while he laid dieing in his bed were, " keep the fire burning boys, keep the wood stove full of wood and help build the church for the Lord. " He also believed the Bible, no Ruckman needed. He taught all of us to believe the Bible. He also believed the Bible before he ever met Ruckman. Dr. Ruckman did preach at our Jubilee ever year. He preached there because he did believe the Bible not because he converted Preacher Lackey into believing the Bible.

3. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman

He has only helped me with my understand my doctrine better. He has taught me many wonderful things in the Bible that I did not know. he has just built on the foundation that others have built.

I'm sure many other have a story just like my story. I do not think anyone of us is part of any so called " Ruckman Brigade. " Nor have I ever met any man that is part of the so called " Ruckman Brigade. " Ruckman is just a man, a saved man that knows the Bible. Nothing more nothing less. I'm a Christian. I do not fallow Ruckman or any man. I love bro. Ruckman, but he is just a man. I believed the Bible before I ever knew who Ruckman was.

My first pastor used to tell us, " do not worry about the Greek and Hebrew. " the he would say, " worry about the Bible we have in our lap. " He never went to Duke ( that is where he was told him to go to seminary before they kicked him out of the Methodist Church back in the 1950's ) The Methodist told him to go to Duke, when he prayed God told him not to go to Duke. As he always said, " the Methodist didn't call him to preach, so they would not tell him where to go or where not to go. He was smart enough to know God did not want him there and smart enough to tell us to worry the Bible we had and.


Atlas

Diligent,

I quoted from Ruckman for Forrest.

Maybe that is when he went on his tirate against Ruckman.

George,

Yeah I am learnig abot people like BC and LindaR. I feel sorry about their past and can feel for them. but their forcefulness turns me off. No one not even I teaches anyone it is ok to drink. but the Audacity to say I do and did. helooks to much to others and not himself. I don't need BC in my life to try and convict me of somehting I have not done. Just anoeehr Hoby Horse

Forrest,

the writter of Hebrews is the one who worte christ in verse 26 it is a generic term for messiah or anointed one. and saw him who is invisible would be The God head in vs 27.

is doesn't say Jesus and has really not anything to do with the Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. it is talking how diffent people at different times had to have faith in God and did so. Just like the Jews have to have it today but it is inthis Godhead personification Jesus Christ that they need to really look to.

I am not as versed to answer fully why the writer puts Christ but I am sure he is just connecting Jesus with the Godhead.

AMEN and AMEN, brother!

That's worth a little shouting, hmm?

http://baptist1611.phpbb3now.com/use...s/woowoo10.gif

Not that I know of. But if so, here goes:

I've been married to my dh for 28 years, and only that long because of the grace of God, and His mercy and longsuffering. I might tell that story, here, someday. :)

And, no, I'm not married to VR. We've just known him for the last ten years! :eek:

Brother Brandon, I am trying to put it all together.

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). I realize that was a present time sermon addressed to the then listening crowd.

We see this message of a coming saviour woven through the pages of scriptures in the Old Testament. Why?

How were people saved in the Old Testament? If it was belief, then belief in what?

I see it was indeed different for them, of course, but was the message of a promised Messiah the substance of what people hoped for and the evidence of things not seen?

I look back, and although I did not physically see Jesus Christ, "I see Him" through the Word. I know Him. He's real to me and personal by faith. I've got the Holy Spirit living in me though, so my eyes are opened. What about those Old Testament men and women? What did they believe in? God in general or something specific regarding the prophecy of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Also Brother George you've pointed out the difference between "believe" and "faith". What is the difference and practical application? Anyone can answer of course.

There is no question that the OT foretells Christ's coming and sacrifice. However, the question is whether or not they understood that Christ's coming as Messiah and his coming as King were to be separate events. This is why Christ's own apostles rebuked the Lord and tried to prevent his capture. They expected Christ to assume the throne, not be killed on a cross.

The whole "valley" of the Church, between Christ's ascension and his return, was a complete mystery of which the Old Testament saints were completely ignorant:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

A full discussion of this will take a long time. My short answer is that in every point in history, a man is saved by doing what God tells him to do. In our case, it's as simple as believing the Gospel. But look at Noah. He had to build a boat to be saved -- if he had ignored God's commands to work he would have died in the water along with everyone else. This is a great example because God doesn't tell us to build anything to be saved -- we rest on Christ's work. But God didn't build the boat for Noah.

As for eternal state -- this is why there is a difference between paradise and heaven. Until Christ died for the sins of men, Abraham (etc) were all separated from God in paradise. But they couldn't get to paradise without doing whatever it was God said to do.

There is no question that at all times, salvation is by grace through faith. But today we have the faith of Christ. Those before Christ had their own faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Compare with:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

This is different -- I live by Jesus Christ's faith, not my own.

Anyway, not to get too long on this -- in the end we all must recognize that only Christ's sacrifice can take away sins. Hebrews 10:4. But how God chooses to impute righteousness differs depending on whom and when God is dealing. For us, we simply believe the Gospel and receive Christ. Noah had to build a boat. Abraham had to believe he'd have a son. Enoch had to walk with God (and it appears God even made exception for Enoch, taking him without even allowing him to die and wait around for 30 B.C.!).

David prayed that God wouldn't take his spirit from him. Clearly that is different than us, who are sealed by the Hold Spirit -- we couldn't lose the Spirit if we tried.

David even had a special arrangement with God. He broke laws that the law demanded he be executed for, and God did not require of it of him. God decides how he imputes righteousness (and sin) on people.

As it relates to salvation, I don't see how. We don't see the Messiah mentioned by any prophets until after Noah (if I recall correctly).

AMEN! As well we all should!

But keep in mind Paul's clear statement that much of this was simply not revealed before God gave it to Paul. We have the benefit of hindsight.

Larkin's "mountain peaks of prophecy" illustrations really help visualize this.

It depends on who you were and when. When you were dying of a snake bite during the Exodus and the priest walked by you with a brass serpent, you believed that you looked at it and would be healed. (Exodus 2)

Also, you believed that if you kept the law and did the right sacrifices, you'd be saved. That's different from now. Nowhere in Mosaic law is it mentioned that faith in a coming messiah is part of atoning for sin, that I can recall.

The problem is, we have this tradition that says "salvation always the same." At its core, it is, but not by the faith of Christ. Salvation granted by doing what God says to do. God told Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc to do different things. God told Israel to do animal sacrifices. And if they didn't do them, they'd not be saved.

Thanks for your clear response.

It's the last statement that prompts me to ask:

Was salvation actually granted by doing? Or, was salvation (deliverance whether it be physical or spiritual) granted by believing God, which in turn resulted in obedience (doing)?

I've always thought "belief" in God's particular word, command, or instruction alone is the instrument for deliverance and for pleasing God, regardless of the dispensation--past, present, or future?

Was it faith alone, which resulted in genuine works? Or was it faith plus works when combined, that provided deliverance? It seems logical and obvious that it required both, I know. And I think that's what you're saying. But doesn't genuine faith result in genuine obedience and action? Isn't faith, therefore, the principle truth that provides the salvation?

That is a very good inquiry. In all cases God wants belief. The doing is part of showing the belief, but there was never a case of salvation without belief.

Would believing animal sacrifice was what God wanted you to do, without actually doing them, be enough under Mosaic law?

It has been said that it is always grace through faith, with the content of faith being different depending on whom you were and when. I think that sums it up well.

Of course not. Like you said, for example, Noah could have believed God's way of escape was to build the Ark, but believing it and doing it are two different things. He would have drowned in his unbelief. But, if Noah did not build the Ark, would he still have "...found grace in the eyes of the LORD"?

It's my understanding that in some cases the scripture has "eternal consequences" and in others, it has "physical consequences". Would the "grace in the eyes of the LORD" been abolished had he not, in faith, built the Ark?

I suppose in the case of sacrificial animals being offered every year, it was God's specific means of atonement for the people and to not believe Him resulted in eternal consequences. But faith in the word, God's provision, resulted in the "believers" making the annual trip to Jerusalem. Their faith resulted in action.

Speaking of that, I'm so grateful:

“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin” (Hebrews 10:14–18).

I need to rest now. I'm getting pretty "noodley" with my MS.

By the way, does 45 to 35 mean anything to you. "Hook'em horns!

Re: "Who Will be Judged"
 

Re: “Who will be judged?”

Brother Forrest’s Quote:
Aloha brother Forrest,

Since I already covered this question extensively with a very dear brother - Sammy Tabuena from Iloilo, Philippines {“BibleStudent”} I thought I would post the answers I gave to him. {Alas, we “agreed to disagree”, but that’s our prerogative in the Liberty that Christ has given us. I still treasure his friendship and the fellowship that we have had -and still have.}

From AV1611 Forum > General Chit-Chat > “Dr. Ruckman” > Page 25 > Posts #245, 247, 250; Page 26 > Posts #254, 255; Page 27 > Post #261, 267;

Page 25 > My POST #245
Here is the Bible Definition of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If the Lord Jesus Christ is ruling and reigning here on the earth in a physical, visible, earthly Kingdom - where does "faith" play a part? Where is the "hope" in "things not seen", if the Lord of Glory is dwelling on the earth? The people living on the earth during the Lord's reign are going to SEE him - "faith" is NOT involved if you can "see" the evidence!


Page 25 > My POST #247
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I agree brother that Hebrews 11 (the whole chapter) is dealing with the "importance" of faith. But, before God explains the "importance" of faith - he gives us the "Definition" of it (Verse 1) so we will not think or believe it is anything other than what He has "defined". Practically speaking, the whole Chapter deals with the issue of "by faith" (15 Verses), or "through faith" (5 verses).

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I have never seen God. I have never heard His audible voice. I have never seen Him perform miracles. And yet I believe He exists, yea and much more than that - I believe in Him and in His power to save; I believe in his Holy Word and in its power to change people's hearts and lives. I believe these things by "faith" - never having seen Him; heard Him; or seen Him perform miracles. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1]

If we can see - where is the "faith"? A person can believe because they see something - but that is not faith - it's believing by sight. The "Jews require a sign" - most of the Jews needed to see in order to believe (Thomas). But we are "blessed" because we believe by faith and not by sight!

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Thomas "saw" and believed. We have not seen, and yet we believe (by "faith"). Thomas believed by sight - we believe by "faith". There is a huge difference - and that is why we are blessed!


Page 25 > My POST #250 (From a Post by “Connie” - later "banned")
Thomas may have lived by "faith" after the Lord ascended, but he believed because he saw the Lord Jesus Christ. He refused to have faith; he refused to believe until he could actually see the Lord. He was saved by seeing the Lord - we are saved by faith in the Lord (Whom we have not seen).

The definition of faith in Hebrews Chapter 11:1 is perfectly clear and without any ambiguity - there is no seeing in faith, it is based solely on that which cannot be seen with the eyes, but which is believed on in the heart.

PAGE 26 > My POST #254 (From a Post by “Connie” – later "banned" - abbreviated answer G.A.)
Thomas needed to see in order to believe You are reading into the Scripture your "private opinion". The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of faith - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO FAITH! He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: ["because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are theythat have not seen, and yet have believed." ] Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so! (John 20:29)

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)
The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes and "SEEING" has NOTHING to do with it:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


PAGE 26 > My POST #255 (In answer to: Biblestudent's Post - Post #252)
Aloha brother Sammy,

I'm not going to belabor the point nor am I going to go off in a huff because someone doesn't agree with me (after all I am fallible):D, however I will try to expound a bit more.

Your quote – Post #252:
Do you know of any other definitions of “faith” in the Scriptures?

To be honest, I haven't looked real hard in the Bible for other definitions of "faith" (there may be more). However, when I read the whole Chapter of Hebrews 11 - I have a slightly different "take" on it than you do.

In addition to emphasizing the “importance” of faith [Verse 6]; Hebrews 11:1 gives us the “definition” of “faith”; while the vast majority of Chapter 11 illustrates “HOW” faith works {i.e. by “faith"} or demonstrates “faith” in operation {i.e. through “faith”} - by giving us various examples of “faith”, (through the personal experiences of Old Testament saints) which I believe is the main purpose of the chapter.

So we have:
#1. The definition of “faith” {Verse 1)
#2. Illustrations or demonstrations of “faith” in operation. {Most of the Verses}
#3. The “importance” of “faith” {Verse 6)

At the beginning of the Chapter - (to insure that no one substitutes their “private opinion” or “private interpretation” of "faith"), God gives us His definition of “faith” – The same “faith” that is illustrated or demonstrated in the rest of the Chapter.

First of all, when it comes to the definition of words in the Bible that are of any spiritual significance or importance – I NEVER rely on Webster’s; Strong’s; Thayers; Kittel’s; or any other man to define God’s words. I always go to the “Source” – the Holy Scriptures - for God’s definition (comparing scripture with scripture – Isaiah 28:10&13).

Let’s “rightly divide the word of truth” – according to the testimony of God’s word:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

“faith is the substance”
#1. So then: FAITH = a SUBSTANCE.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#2. and: that SUBSTANCE = THINGS hoped for

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”
#3. then: those THINGS that are = HOPED FOR – are not tangible – they are “hoped” for!

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#4. and: the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = EVIDENCE of things not seen

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#5. and: the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS not seen.

“faith is the substance of things hoped for”, the evidence of things not seen.
#6. and the EVIDENCE of the SUBSTANCE of FAITH = THINGS NOT SEEN!

So then we have: “FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of THINGS HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of THINGS NOT SEEN.”

You cannot taste, touch, feel, or SEE the THINGS (they are intangible) that make up the SUBSTANCE of "FAITH". You can, however, receive "FAITH" upon HEARING the word of God {and then "BELIEVING"}. As a matter of Scriptural fact this is the only way (today) that you can receive "FAITH"!

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is why the Holy Scriptures of Truth are so vitally important , because today in the United States they (the Scriptures) are not only being altered and changed by apostates; they are also being added to (the “traditions of men”) or being ignored by the so-called "Evangelicals" and “Fundamentalists”.

Hebrews 11:1 Now “faith” is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by “it” the elders obtained a good report.

So by “it” (faith) the elders (Old Testament saints) obtained a good report. [2Timothy 2:15]

Hebrews 11:3 Through “faith” we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Notice “things” again. There are “things” which are seen which are made of “things” you cannot see.

Hebrews 11:4 By “faith” Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:5 By “faith” Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without “faith” it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

NOTICE: Here then is the “importance” of “faith” (for all of mankind - extremely important!).

Hebrews 11:7 By “faith” Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by “faith”.

NOTICE: The “things not seen” – again [Hebrews 11:1].

Hebrews 11:8 By “faith” Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.Hebrews 11:9 By “faith” he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.Hebrews 11:11 Through “faith” also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in “faith”, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

NOTICE: “having seen them afar off” – is in reference to the “promises” not things”.

Hebrews 11:17 By “faith” Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Hebrews 11:20 By “faith” Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

NOTICE: Those “things” – again.

Hebrews 11:21 By “faith” Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22 By “faith” Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Hebrews 11:23 By “faith” Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Hebrews 11:24 By “faith” Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 11:27 By “faith” he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

NOTICE: Moses hadn’t “seen” God yet – However, he forsook Egypt by “faith” as if he had “seen” Him (that’s the essence of “faith” – not seeing, but still believing!).

Hebrews 11:28 Through “faith” he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hebrews 11:29 By “faith” they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30 By “faith” the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

Hebrews 11:31 By “faith” the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through “faith” subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through “faith”, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

NOTICE: That “thing” – again.

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our “faith”; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews Chapter 11 certainly gives us the “definition” of “faith" and the “importance” of “faith”; but more than these two very important points – it gives us illustrations of HOW “faith” works and demonstrates “faith” in operation so that we: “through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”

REMEMBER: the “things” hoped for? [Hebrews 11:1]

Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Thomas needed to see in order to believe. The Lord Jesus Christ rebukes Thomas for being "faithless" (John 20:27). He was not talking about a "lack" of “faith” - He was rebuking Thomas for having NO “FAITH”. He refused to believe the disciples words (the record - the words of God). In John 20:29 the Lord clearly states: "because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Thomas refused to believe by "faith" - he insisted (required) on "seeing", and when he "saw" he believed. Those of us who have heard the word of God and believed have done so by "faith", without seeing. There is a difference - the Lord Jesus Christ said so. (John 20:29)

John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Thomas was "faithless" and refused to "believe" unless he could actually: "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe." (John 20:25)

The Bible states quite clearly HOW faith comes:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So then, Thomas refused to hear the words of God (the disciples' testimony), and in doing so he refused to believe (by "faith"). Instead he insisted on SEEING before he would BELIEVE - Again "FAITH" had nothing to do with his believing - IF "faith" cometh by hearing the word of God - which since the Scriptures declare it to be so - I accept the Bible record with no emendations, subtractions, or additions.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

PAGE 27 > My POST #261
Aloha brother Sammy,

A word of caution: I would be very careful in a debate or discussion over Scripture in advancing your point using a "grammatical" argument. No. 1 - because there are no examples of such a "method" in the Holy Scriptures themselves; and No. 2 - because these are points made "academically" with the "intellect" (the mind) and not with the heart. {See my Post #1 Rejection of God's Words = EVIL - under "Bible Studies" - this Forum; or my study on "the heart of the matter" on my web page.}

In America we have far too much "intellectual" Christianity (grounded in Academia and based on the "mind"); and far too little Biblical Christianity (grounded on the Scriptures, and based on the heart).

Please remember that we believe with our heart NOT our mind:
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are to hide God's word in our heart NOT our mind:
Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

We are to diligently "keep" our "heart" NOT our mind:
Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.

All of the "issues of life" proceed from out of our "heart" NOT our mind:
Matthew 12:34 . . . for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Matthew 12:35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

The Bible testimony is clear: All of mankind has a "heart problem". We are all born with a deceitful and wicked "heart":
Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

By now you might be asking what's the point? the point is while we are born with a deceitful "heart" we have to work on, or "mold" the "mind" in order to "corrupt" it (and that's where the wrong kind of "schooling" or "education" comes in). For nearly 2,000 years, apostasy in God's churches has "always" been introduced and promoted by the academic "elites", the "intellectual class" (without one exception!).

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [1Timothy 6:5; 2 Timothy 3:]

IF the following quote is true:

Sammy's Quote:
How do you deal with this verse?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Can you substitute the word "believe" {or “belief”} for "faith"? I think not. {Try it.} Unless we are to believe that our "belief" is a gift from God. We are saved through "faith", and "it" {"faith"} is God's "gift" to us because we "heard" the word of God and "believed" in our hearts (the Gospel of the Grace of God) and He "gifted" us with "faith" - His "faith" NOT ours. It's our "BELIEF" - it's His "FAITH". I cannot see how they can possibly be "the same".

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be
justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We obtained like precious "faith" (God's precious "gift" to us) by "believing" in our "hearts", after we heard the Gospel of the Grace of God.

I know that there also plenty of verses that talk about our "faith" in the Lord Jesus Christ, but the preceding verses tell us where our "faith" came from - it's a "gift" from God {the Lord Jesus Christ "earned it - it was His "faith" that persevered - it's His to give} - it's ours - but it came from God because we believed!

Respectfully submitted,
Your brother in Christ,
George

PAGE 27 > My POST #267
Aloha brother Sammy,

I want to be careful here - but I never said: "the "grammatical" method should be done away with". I was giving a warning about the use of grammatical "terms" (I wasn't clear when I used the term: "Grammatical method". Sorry!)

Here is my quote: Quote:
Concerning your example: Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

My point is that Paul never used "grammatical terms" (verb, noun, synonyms, etc.) in order "convince" someone of a Scriptural truth. And since most ordinary people do not understand "grammar" (who does? :p), the use of the grammatical "terms" only introduces a "foreign element" into a scriptural point.

Your previous quote:
You may find this hard to believe, but I have never studied the Bible in this manner. Just like I have never used "Strong's Concordance to look up the "meaning" of a word in Hebrew or Greek, since I don't trust "scholars" to give me the "meaning" of a word in English.

I try to "rightly divide" the word of truth comparing Scripture with Scripture and leave out all other extemporaneous distractions.

Aloha brother Forrest,
Sorry for the looong Post! ;) You asked for it! :D There's more where that came from, but I'll quit - for now. :cool:

Concerning the question, what is the difference between "faith" and "belief", this seems to be the thrust of what you are saying. Your example of Thomas who said, "...Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25), is most beneficial and clarifies your view.

According to the definition of "faith" in Hebrews 11:1, it is also clear to me that faith is defined by the "things" we do not see with our eyes, but yet, we believe with our heart.

I especially agree that God has, in His mercy, given us the written Word whereby we receive faith. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

To everyone who has participated in this thought provoking thread, and to those who are and will read it, I want to exhort all of us to continue, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:1).

Re: "Who Will be Judged"?
 

Aloha brother Forrest,

You asked some questions earlier and here is my reply:

You asked: Because God is concerned about setting up His Kingdom, and as such He wanted His people (The Jews) to know and be prepared to receive their King & Messiah & Saviour. ". . . . for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [ Revelation 19:10] The Jews, on the other hand, (at least their "leaders") wanted only a "King". They "cherry-picked" the Scriptures (like many Christians do today) so that they ignored those verses that dealt with Christ's suffering, death, burial, and resurrection. They were unwilling to accept their King on His "terms" - [Matthew Chapters 5, 6, & 7], and so rejected Him and killed Him.

You asked: The significance first of all is that only God knows the future (the "proof is in the pudding"). Second - the significance is that, since God knew the future, He knew that His Son was going to be rejected by His people (the Jews), and yet He had to make a bonafide offer of His Kingdom to the Jews FIRST (already knowing that they would reject Him), before He could turn to the Gentiles and graft them (the "wild olive tree") into the ("original" or "natural") olive tree.

The "KEY" to understanding the Bible is understanding the difference between the Jews; the church; and the Gentiles [1 Corinthians 10:32] Basically I perceive the Bible thusly: The Old Testament (From Genesis 11:26 - Malachi 4:6) is the continuous story of God the Father offering Himself to His people (the Jews) and being rejected. In the New Testament (Specifically in the four Gospels) is the story of God the Son offering Himself to His people (the Jews) and being rejected. And from Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 7 - God the Holy Spirit offering Himself (through the persons and testimony of His disciples) exclusively to His people (the Jews) and they rejected Him (by rejecting the Apostles - whom He was living in).

Only after God's people (the Jews) rejected the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the entire Godhead) did God turn to the Gentiles. From Acts Chapter 1 through Acts Chapter 6 we see a continual appeal (only to the nation of Israel) on the part of the Apostles to get the nation of Israel to repent of killing their Messiah and they promised He would return. The stoning of Stephen [Acts Chapter 7] is a "turning point" in Scripture; for, immediately after his death God turned to the Gentiles (First the Samaritans - Acts Chapter 8; and then the Gentiles Acts chapter 10; and finally the call to the Apostle of the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul, and the establishment of the New Testament church - a "mystery" to all of the Prophets, priests, and even to those disciples that walked with Jesus - Luke 18:31-34) Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken. {None of His disciples understood the "Gospel" - NOT until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, because "these things" were "HID" from them!}

To answer your question briefly (at least for now) - I believe the Bible is mostly about a Kingdom (God's Kingdom). and since the saints (Old Testament & New Testament) are going to spend Eternity in that Kingdom, God has spoken and written about that Kingdom far more than He has about "Salvation". God has a Kingdom and His main concern is about His Kingdom and its KING. The fact that throughout history He has "saved" {by GRACE} those who have BELIEVED Him and OBEYED him is ancillary to His Kingdom. From our perspective: The most important thing is our Salvation {And it is - as far as we our concerned. What could be more precious?). From God's perspective: The most important thing is His Kingdom and of course THE KING OF KINGS & LORD OF LORDS!

Our life here on earth is very short, but we are going to spend eternity in the Kingdom of God. According to how God looks at time - about six days have passed since He created Adam & Eve [2 Peter 3:8]. Our perspective is not always God's perspective [Isaiah 55:8], and as such, we are looking through a glass darkly (I don't know everything there is to know about the Scriptures, even though I may come across as a "know it all" sometimes) and all too often we are not looking at things as God looks at them, or the way He would have us to look at them {That's the whole purpose of "study"}.

I want to know what God says. I want to know God's thoughts. I want to know God's ways. And if those words, thoughts, and ways run contrary to the popular (and "accepted") "Christian Theology" of the day, I am going to try to follow His words (as I understand them) as best I can - thus the verse that goes along with my "moniker": "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." [Romans 3:4]

According to what I have read (I have not investigated this thoroughly - yet) there are at least five times more (or even more) Prophecies in the Bible about Christ's Second Coming (to set up His KINGDOM) for every prophesy prophesied dealing with His First Coming. If that is true (and I think it is so), then that should tell us which "Advent" is most important (from God's point of view).

For us: The Gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ) is the most important event in our lives (Hallelujah). For us: The fact that: ". . . God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." [John 3:16] is the paramount issue in our lives. For us: The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is the most precious and vital element in our lives (and it should be). But for God, although all these things that I have mentioned above are vitally important, there is something that is paramount with God and that is His KINGDOM and the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Luke 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

AMEN! SO BE IT ACCORDING TO THY WORD!

Life is not all about US or about our "Salvation" (precious as it is). Life is about glorifying Almighty God and His Son. And although there may not be many who are glorifying Him now - there will come a time {in His KINGDOM} that He is going to receive all glory, honor, praise and worship. I firmly believe that The Bible is NOT all about US or our "Salvation" - it's all about God; His Holy word; and HIS KINGDOM. :)

This post, in my opinion, provides a healthy balance to things we've been discussing. I do not, of course, no much. But I know that my redeemer liveth! And life, indeed, is all about Him. Thanks for your investment of time and thoughtful comments.