The Bible doesn't say God sends the Gospel to only the elect. That passage stated the how of salvation - through the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Other passages indicate that God has sent His Word into all the world, and salvation is to all the world, whosoever will.

beloved57, I'm glad you like to laugh out loud (lol). I like a person with a sense of humour. However, I'm not in agreement with Calvinism.

The Horrble Decree

AH! gentle, gracious Dove ;
And art thou grieved in me,
That sinners should restrain Thy love,
And say it is not free :
It is not free for all ;
The most Thou passest by,
And mockest with a fruitless call
Whom Thou hast doomed to die.

They think Thee not sincere
In giving each his day ;
"Thou only draw'st the sinner near,
To cast him quite away ;
To aggravate his sin,
His sure damnation seal,
Thou show'st him in heaven, and say'st, Go in,-
And thrusts him into hell."

O Horrible Decree,
Worthy of whence it came!
Forgive their hellish blasphemy
Who charge it on the Lamb,
Whose pity Him inclined
To leave His throne above,
The Friend and Saviour of mankind,
The God of grace and love.

O gracious loving Lord,
I feel Thy bowels yearn ;
For those who slight the gospel word
I share in Thy concern :
How art Thou grieved to be
By ransom'd worms withstood !
How dost thou bleed afresh, to see
Them trample on Thy blood !

To limit Thee they dare,
Blaspheme Thee to Thy face,
Deny their fellow worms a share
In Thy redeeming grace ;
All for their own take,
Thy righteousness engross,
Of none effect to most they make
The merits of Thy cross.

Sinners, abhor the fiend :
His other gospel hear-
"The God of truth did not intend
The thing His words declare;
He offers grace to all,
Which most cannot embrace,
Mock'd with an ineffectual call
And insufficient grace.

"The righteous God consign'd
Them over to their doom,
And sent the Saviour of mankind
To damn them from the womb :
To damn for falling short
Of what he could not do,
For not believing the report
Of that which was not true.

The God of love pass'd by
The most of these that fell,
Ordain'd poor reprobates to die,
And forced them into hell."
"He did not do the deed,
(Some have more mildly raved,)
He did not damn them-but decreed
They never should be saved.

"He did not them bereave
Of life, or stop their breath;
His grace He only would not give,
And starved their souls to death."
Satanic sophistry!
But still, all gracious God,
They charge the sinners death on Thee,
Who bought'st him with Thy blood.

They think with shrieks and cries
To please the Lord of Hosts,
And offer Thee, in sacrifice,
Millions of slaughtered ghosts;
With new-born babes they fill
The dire infernal shade,
For such (they say) was Thy great will
Before the world was made.

How long, O God, how long,
Shall Satan's rage proceed!
Wilt not Thou soon avenge the wrong,
And crush the serpents head?
Surely Thou shalt at last
Bruise him beneath our feet;
The devil and his doctrine cast
Into the burning pit.

Arise, O God, arise;
Thy glorious truth maintain;
Hold forth the bloody Sacrifice,
For every sinner slain!
Defend Thy mercy's cause,
Thy grace divinely free;
Lift up the standard of Thy cross,
Draw all men unto Thee.

O vindicate Thy grace,
Which every soul may prove;
Us in Thy arms of love embrace,
Of everlasting love.
Give the pure gospel word,
Thy preachers multiply;
Let all confess their common Lord,
And dare for Him to die.

My life I here present,
My heart's last drop of blood:
O let it all be freely spent
In proof that Thou art good;
Art good to all that breathe,
Who all may pardon have;
Thou willest not the sinners death,
But all the world wouldst save.

O take me at my word;
But arm me with Thy power,
Then call me forth to suffer, Lord,
To meet the fiery hour:
In death will I proclaim
That all may hear Thy call,
And clap my hands amidst the flame,
And shout,- He DIED FOR ALL.

Wesley (John, I think?)

BTW: Wesley didn't believe in eternal security. Nonetheless, thanks for the poem.

The gospel does go throughout the world since the elect are scattered throughout the world.. Duh

Your not in agreement the word of God..

wesley preached the doctrines of devils..lol may God Judge him in that day..

Apparently, John Wesley was a turncoat(the good kind), from what I read of his letters with Whitfield. It was to Whitfield's chagrin that his friend had changed his views.
That's just what I gather from a casual read. Maybe someone who knows history can learn me better.

What is it with all the sarcasm and mocking? That is not Christlike, or meek and gentle - which you are commanded to be towards those who are opposed to the truth (if that's what you think I am).

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Ephesians 2:8 says, ". . . by grace ARE YE SAVED, through FAITH and THAT not of yourselves: it is THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast."
In Greek, pronouns must agree with their antecedent nouns in gender. Many think that FAITH is the antecedent noun to THAT. This cannot be so since FAITH is FEMININE and THAT is NEUTER. The true antecedent term that Paul is talking about is BEING SAVED. It is this SALVATION which is the GIFT OF GOD. It is this SALVATION which is NOT OF WORKS. It all makes sense when this meaning is taken. It doesn't make sense to say that FAITH is "NOT OF WORKS" but it makes perfect sense to say that SALVATION is NOT OF WORKS.



Jesus receives all of the glory, He paid the full punishment of sin.


little rude, dontchya think?

I agree, Beth, it is obvious salvation is the gift spoken of in that verse - and there are other NT passages that also refer to salvation as a gift.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Correction beloved57, I'm not in agreement with you. I love the Word of God and believe every word of it.

(love God's Word)...as do the majority of others here. We are discussing differences of how we understand it. It's one thing to disagree. Iron sharpens iron. But saying we don't know Jesus, or, we don't understand the Bible is just contentious and sews discord...

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
...19...and he that soweth discord among brethren.


When you make statements like you have, along with the LOL thing, it's no longer a discussion. We have all been guilty, but I believe you have a consistent attitude that is proud and arrogant. That's too bad.

This would make a good start to a potentially interesting thread.

No you dont, you reject the word of God sir in exchange for your human philsophy..You dont even appear to understand the plain gospel of jesus christ either, which is christ has saved [past tense] his people from their sins by the cross..

Yeah but you dont understand the gift. The gift is given to the elect, just as death was given..It was not a matter of Individual choice or freewill..

The gift of salvation is given to those that believe or trust in Jesus Christ.

No you are making the gift a matter of reward, thats not giving a gift, but making an offer, thats not what the scripture says now is it ?

rom 6:

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those who believe or trust in Jesus christ give evidence they have been given eternal life as a gift..

Jn 17:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Now are you denying that Jesus has done this?

When you are given a gift, you must receive the gift to have the gift.

Nope, its not a gift then its a offer, the bible does not say that the wages of sin are death, but the offer of the gift is eternal life..

Jesus did not say in jn 17:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Here is beth version

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should offer eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

It wouldn't be a gift if you were forced to have it. A gift is something freely offered.

Question: if you made no personal choice to receive Christ and His gift of salvation, why should we even believe you are saved and are one of the elect?

If a man offers marriage to a women are they married? Doesn't the woman have to agree to the marriage. In a covenant relationship there is an offer and an acceptance. If a man forces the women to marry him, is this a loving relationship?

It's the same with Jesus, He offers freely to all the gift of salvation. We must receive this gift to have the gift. God wants a family in heaven that loves Him freely of their own will. When we repent and trust in Jesus, we become in agreement with God. We are reconciled unto God. We are in agreement with the will of God. We must surrender our own will.

This is basic Christian doctrine on salvation.

you might ask, "how does one surrender his own will"

a humble heart may surrender his own will. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Read through your posts. Are you humble?

The bible doesnt say that your human philsophy says that. The word offer is never used in the context of salvation..its something jesus gives not offer..

Jn 17:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

give give give not offer..

You have to be born again first to be humble, natural man cannot be humble, we are proud by nature..

Yes I am by the grace of God, but you are not, because you exalt man instead of God..

Thats not biblical marriage..God explains that here gen 2:

22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

God brings his bride to the bridegroom..because she was made from him..

eph 5:

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The church christ bride was chosen in him before the world began..


And on top of that the marriages of the patriarchs never needed the permission of the women she was given in marriage, in fact she had no say so whatever..

I'm just curious: why waste your time here trying to preach your message of fatalism to people who obviously won't respond to it?

I am not wasting my time God has a purpose for it..

isa 55

11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God has a purpose for His Word - not your opinions.

You despise Gods word because thats what I bring to you..

No, I love God's Word - it is the rule and standard by which I gauge everything by, including opinions.

I'm trying to explain how a covenant agreement works:

Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely

IRRESISTABLE GRACE - DESTROYED

Also, just for fun,

Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

There is the word. I wonder how KJB only calvinists explain away the word right there in the perfect book?

I love my KJB :D

Sarcasm
 

Someone made a suggestion about "sarcasm and mocking" as a possible thread. I have to admit I like sarcasm when it's funny and not biting. I'm also guilty of "mocking" at times, though I do try to avoid it.

Proverbs 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.
Proverbs 15:15 All the days of the afflicted are evil: but he that is of a merry heart hath a continual feast.
Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

I've had friends who have "expressed love" by insults. The reason I didn't get offended because of how it was delivered. :D Then, there are those who can say, "I love you" and I go away feeling insulted. :confused::(

So, I ask, who is privy to Scriptural use of humour (serious question:o)?

How so ? A dead man has not a will to spiritual things..so this is not addressing the spiritually dead, but those who have been made alive by the dreative power of God..

These men here would not even qualify according to Jesus..

jn 5:

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats mans natural will, He will not come because of depravity, and nothing but the power of God makes him willing..

ps 110:

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


God should be praised for His power when one comes to Christ, and not mans filthy freewill..

Rev.22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

who was this written to? THE CHURCHES
These are people that are able to hear.

all this verse proves is the ignorance of the freewiller to read the context surrounding the verse they pull out to prove a point.

Those verses are written to all mankind. Revelation 2-3 is written specifically to the churches.

If people do not have a choice in getting saved, then why did Jesus give the commission in Mark 16:15-"Go ye into ALL the world, and PREACH THE GOSPEL to EVERY creature" , why are we told that if they don't have a choice?

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". The "whosoever will" doesn't mean that they all will. But then if they don't have a choice, then why in Mark 16:15 did Jesus say - " Go ye into ALL the world, and PREACH the gospel to EVERY CREATURE", if they don't have a choice?