You're sidestepping, Jerry.
But that's right! That's why "that which" is the same "that which" in I John 1:1. And it all falls into place!

No, I am not sidestepping at all. I am showing why I think a particular interpretation does not line up. Just because the phrase "that which" is used in both passages doesn't automatically mean they are referring to the same thing. That would be like saying these two passages both use "the" so they must be talking about the same thing. 1 John 1 does not mention anything being "perfect" - and in that passage John was referring to what they already knew and experienced personally about Jesus - so that would be "that which already came," not what is to come.

Aloha brother Sammy,

I believe that tongues shall cease at the end of the Great Tribulation (I believe that they will be needed in the Tribulation - that is why Paul said: "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues 1 Corinthians 14:39); and at the beginning of the Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ (There will be no need for them anymore-forever).

When we see Christ ("face to face"), tongues will cease for us. At the end of the Tribulation, when the Tribulation saints see Christ ("face to face") - tongues will cease for them. When Christ sets up His Millennial Reign and all the world shall behold Him ("face to face"), tongues will cease forever.

Aloha Bro. George,
Do you mean to say that it is wrong for me to forbid anyone in my church to speak in tongues today?

Aloha brother Sammy,

Good Question! And one that I have never been able to fully answer to the satisfaction of the Questioner (and even myself) - but here goes:

Since tongues are for a "sign" and is one of the "sign gifts" and since the Jews are the people who "require" signs - I believe that it is proper, at this time (in the age of Grace), to forbid any "healer"; "tongue speaker"; "serpent handler"; "exhorcist"; etc, from "performing" in the church.

(I have never had this problem in a church, since I left a Pentacostal church back about 1965.) If tongues are going to be used in the Great Tribulation Paul couldn't proscribe them. In addition, if God was still dealing with the Jews as a people rather than individuals then God was still obligated to give them signs.

As an aside: At least some of the sign gifts are described in Mark 16:15-18.

To be perfectly honest - this is one of many questions that I don't have a real good answer for. And I was pretty sure that you were going to ask it! :o

At least, we agree on that.:)

I surely do not see tongues during the tribulation, nor do I see the Spirit present then, and you'd need them both for sure. The two witnesses in Rev.11 will have plenty of power, but tongues are never mentioned.

1 Corinthians 14 refers to tongues as something that can be learned - ie. a foreign language (you can't "learn" a gift if you were never given it). In the context of that chapter, we not only have rules for the use of the gift of tongues, but also for using regular foreign languages. Out of our prejudices, we are not to refuse a foreign missionary from speaking in his own (or another) language - provided there is an interpretor and the other requirements are also followed. One modern day (or at least in my lifetime) example of someone breaking these rules is the Catholic church having their services in Latin - with no interpretor. Paul indicates we need to understand what is spoken in order to be edified by it. Of course, someone else speaking in a non-human language would also be in violation of these rules.

Translated out of the original tongues...

Aloha brother,

I do not "teach" that tongues are going to be in the Great Tribulation, since I cannot go to the scriptures and prove it with absolute confidence.

My reasoning for "believing" that they are in the Tribulation is because:

1. Signs, miracles, and wonders are going to resume in the Tribulation.
2. The Jews require a sign.
3. Tongues are for a sign.
4. The 144,000 (at least) are going to go throughout the world preaching the "gospel of the kingdom" [Mathew 4:23; Matthew 9:35; Matthew 24:14; Mark 1:14] not the gospel of the Grace of God.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Notice: This "gospel" of the kingdom is "confirmed by "signs" - not "faith" in the words of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (No "signs")

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I would NEVER insist that another brother in Christ would accept my belief on this issue, and neither would I ever "break" fellowship with him over it. :)

There are issues in the Book which are paramount (a bunch of them), and then there are these kinds of issues which are interesting, but not necessary for fellowship

Your brother in Christ,

George

Are there clear passages that actually teach there will be any signs and wonders done by God (and called as such) during the Tribulation period? I can find various references about false signs and wonders done by Satan, false prophets, the Antichrist just prior to Christ's return, but cannot think of any references to them done by God - now, I am referring to passages where those specific terms are used, not where by our reasoning we assume something.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. (Yes, signs from God - but not signs and wonders done by God through people.)

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (Same thing - and these are not done on earth.)

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:11-14 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev. 11, without a doubt shows two witnesses empowered by God during the tribulation to perform supernatural acts.

Granted - the descriptions of both fit Moses and Elijah* - but I am looking for any passages that indicate common true believers will be able to perform any kinds of signs and wonders and/or that these will be common occurences done by God (through believers) during that time period.

*Revelation 11 also does not use the terms signs and wonders. They are performing judgments and stopping the rain in Israel for 3 1/2 years.

A challenge with no challengers
 

Well it has been a week since I proposed a challenge to all of you who believe that "that which is perfect" is the completed scriptures. My challenge is posted on page 4 of this thread and no one has replied. (Jerry's sidestepping reply was not to the challenge, but to a side note. Biblestudent did not reply, but rather decided to quickly change the subject.)

I know why there are no replies, for the challenge asks of you to produce something that cannot be produced from scripture. To back up your belief/view, there must be at least one example in his post-I Cor. writings to indicate that Paul did not have a clear understanding of the available scriptures. This example would clearly prove that when writing I Cor. there was at least one thing for which he was waiting that was not yet revealed to him. This revelation would clear up this "dark glass" that he as well as the Corinthians were looking through. But you sit and think and...nothing. You search Paul's epistles...and still nothing. How can this be? It has to be in there, right?!?

Wrong.

Because you cannot and will not produce such evidence to fortify your theory, I authoritatively proclaim that Paul did not "know in part" in relation to coming revelations/scriptures, but rather he knew only in part just as we do today. Therefore, "that which is perfect" is yet to come, and one day... (maybe today!)...

I didn't reply, because I already stated my opinion/understanding of this issue - but it is not a dead horse I want to or feel the need to keep beating. I did not sidestep any issues or questions, but addressed other things that came up in addition to 1 Corinthians 13. Brandon has stated he does not agree with my position, and it is his website, so I let it be.

No, I already stated why you and everyone else did not reply, and using Brandon's opinion as an alibi to back down is pretty weak. The truth is that you're backed into a corner with your theory, and you know you'll get tagged if you try anything funny to get out.

I've said enough, and I'm not looking to drive this into the ground.

You know - it is still a sin to judge someone's motives. You are not God - and I stated my reason for not replying.

My hands are full this week and next week and next week and next week... It's summer here - evangelism time. Despite my voice problem, I have to preach every night now even though I have to whisper through the microphone. I'm our church's jeepney driver (equivalent to the "bus ministry" in the US), pianist, music director, Sunday School superintendent, kinder school administrator, and pastor, and also part time janitor.:D
Not only that, I am a teacher in a Bible college and a high school teacher. One would think I am a "super rich" person doing all these. I am not. You know, this is often how the ministry goes in our country - multiple jobs, and you don't even get paid equivalent to one job. I say this cheerfully. My church loves the Lord,and they love me, their pastor. I am neither murmuring nor asking for pity. There is joy in serving Jesus. But I'm afraid to see my work go up in smoke before the Judgment Seat of Christ. So there is nothing to brag when I am an "unprofitable servant" who have only done that which was my duty to do. Just want to serve my Lord the best I could. (Hope, this is a blessing and an encouragement to all of you and not a cursing to me.)

Having said all that, I think you will understand if I ask you to allow me some time "off" from this forum. OK? :)
Should you say that I am simply giving an alibi for not having a ready answer to your challenge, the fact that you said I "decided to quickly change the subject" is the reason why I need to read and give my answers carefully - and that requires me TIME now. That I have proof or don't have proof for my posts, I'll look at them again later. As for now, I enjoy reading and learning from y'all. See ya!

Hey, I'm back, but now with hands full. So, I hope I'm answering right on target.

1. First, if "that which is perfect" is the coming of Jesus Christ at the Second Coming (on earth), then there will be no more prophesyings and speaking in tongues after that, which is true. BUT...

Isn't the Rapture a coming of Jesus Christ? Isn't that a "face to face" with Christ? Are we going to speculate that the coming referred to in 1 Corinthians is the Second Coming of Christ on earth and not the Rapture of the Church?

If the "in part" shall be done away at the Second Coming (on earth), does it mean that at the Rapture, with glorified bodies, we STILL know in part??

2. Next, if "that which is perfect" is the coming of Jesus Christ at the Rapture, then there will be no more prophesyings and speaking in tongues after that. BUT...

According to Joel 2 and Acts 2, in the "last days" WHEN the sun and moon be darkened, in the "day of the Lord", the Holy Spirit will be "poured out" and the shall dream dreams and see visions - there goes prophesyings after the Rapture.
(By the way, I didn't have time to put all Scripture references here. But should anyone think it's all speculation, I'm willing to show the verses.)

Mark 16 tells us that "these signs shall follow them that believe" to confirm the word of the gospel of the kingdom which will also be preached during the Tribulation period. Gospel of the kingdom REQUIRES signs - tongues included! So tongues will be used after the Rapture.

Now we know "in part", but when Jesus comes at the Rapture, the "in part" knowledge shall vanish away. What about the tongues? What about prophesyings? They're mentioned TOGETHER in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Why take one and leave the other?
Remember, that in the first century (before the completed revelation of the mystery and of the canon), they know "in part" and thus needed TONGUES (as a sign to confirm the word to the Jew during the Acts transition period) and PROPHESYINGS (since the prophecy of Scripture is not yet complete).

pbiwolski: "To back up your belief/view, there must be at least one example in his post-I Cor. writings to indicate that Paul did not have a clear understanding of the available scriptures. This example would clearly prove that when writing I Cor. there was at least one thing for which he was waiting that was not yet revealed to him. This revelation would clear up this "dark glass" that he as well as the Corinthians were looking through. But you sit and think and...nothing. You search Paul's epistles...and still nothing. How can this be? It has to be in there, right?!?

Wrong.

Because you cannot and will not produce such evidence to fortify your theory, I authoritatively proclaim that Paul did not "know in part" in relation to coming revelations/scriptures, but rather he knew only in part just as we do today. Therefore, "that which is perfect" is yet to come, and one day... (maybe today!)..."

1. Paul did have a CLEAR understanding of the available Scriptures, but he knows "in part" because "all Scripture" is NOT yet available to make the man of God "perfect".

2. Paul knew and prophesied "in part" because "perfect" knowledge of the unavailable was impossible and prophecy to fill in that which was yet missing was a necessity.

3. To make "that which is perfect" to refer to Christ's coming seems a stretch, since the context (1 Cor. 12-14) defines the "in part" as referring to the gifts that are going to vanish WHEN "that which is perfect is come". Are we to prophesy in part, know in part, heal in part, speak in tongues in part until the Rapture? Notice that the chapter (1 Cor.13) begin with TONGUES (v.1) and again mentioned tongues (v.8). Are we to speak in tongues until the Rapture? Forbid not to speak in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, but 1 Corinthians 13 says tongues shall cease. When? At the Rapture?

4. In answer to your challenge, show me that Paul had all of the Word of God in 1 Corinthians and I will show you that he received all the other "visions and revelations" after that.

Finally, I know that we know "in part", in the practical sense, until Jesus comes. So I am open to either view. But I know also that we no longer know "in part", in the doctrinal/dispensational sense, since we have the "perfect" Word of God and it is NOW made MANIFEST.

Thanks for the reply, but....

You "slice your own throat" with your line of thinking. To quote Joel and the outpouring of the Spirit hurts your stand on "that which is perfect" just as you suggest it does mine.
Think about it. That won't help, nor does it take away from my position. The sabbath has been done away, but it will certainly be reinstituted (Col.2)...

To pt. 1 above:
You cannot "see through a glass darkly" and call it "clear."

To pt. 2:
Now you have the "unavailable," so show me what he received from the Lord that proves his knowledge of the "glass" to be "in part."

To pt. 3:
The sign gifts are surrounding the passage, true; but the primary focus of the chapter deals with charity. So what if Paul throws something else in there on the side? He does it in all his epistles. When he moves to knowledge, he parks there for awhile. Many read the sign gifts into verse 12, but he's only talking about what he does or doesn't know.

To pt. 4:
I never said that Paul had all the word of God. I said that Paul has all knowledge pertaining to God's word revealed to him.

Now, I'd like to hear your best explanation of what Paul means when he says, ...but then shall I know even as also I am known. No one touches this statement. Will you?

I think I have explained that before.

If you say so.