As a matter of fact I do, and I will go even further to say, that if everyone who claims the name of Christ were to adopt the KJV as the sole source of devotion and study, there would be more day-to-day sanctification within the body of Christ.

Amen!!!

Hi Scott,

And yet KJV-only supporters disagree on doctrine. The point of the original post is that if you have any doctrine wrong, you are a "heretic". So when KJV-only supporters disagree on doctrine, how do we determine which (if any) are not a heretic?

Hi Forrest,

I believe the same thing, I just do not believe it was preserved in the same way you believe it was preserved, and I do not claim my belief as authoritative. I've explained this many times, I don't know why you continue to misunderstand me.

No, there is a issue before that which is - is that kind of preservation what scripture meant, and does anyone have the authority to name any specific translation as exclusively God's word? Your "first issue" is based on a presumption, and it's that presumption I question.

Then why do you keep responding to me?

The main point of this thread is George's original post, that if you don't have perfect doctrine, you are a heretic. Does anyone here claim to have perfect doctrine? When KJV-only supporters disagree with someone else, who has the authority to decide who is correct and who isn't? For example, there is a KJV-only supporter on this board who I know denies the Trinity. I have opposed him several times in the past on this issue, yet when KJV-only supporters find out, they don't say anything to him simply because he is KJV-only. That is a farce and a shame in my opinion.

Then what is your source for authority?

Does he deny that the King James Bible is the preserved written word of God?

Is this true?

Can you share the post where this KJV-only supporter on this board has openly said he/she denies the Trinity?

I ask because I have some curiosity as to how someone would arrive at this conclusion using the King James Version. Again, some curiosity. For me, I completely believe in the Trinity because the Holy Ghost taught me via my King James Bible.

Peace,
Harley

I am not as well versed as some of you. The only perfectly preserved word of God is the KJ Bible.

A Double Amen! and a "boom-sha-cho-lacha!"

OH,sorry guys,lost my composure. I guess i'll go back to reading the posts.:)

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"
 

Aloha all,

The following information is supplied for those brethren on the Forum who are sincerely interested in the Truth (Sophists not included!). :( Because of the preponderance of Sophists (even amongst the brethren) in the Western world, everything that a person speaks or writes today must be carefully explained, or words will be taken out of context, or twisted to make them say something other than that which was intended. This Post is meant to “clarify” any misconceptions I may have given about “Heresies & Hereticks”.

The following is a partial list of Bible doctrines that are either denied, twisted, or changed that qualifies a person for being a Heretick, or an Apostate, or an Atheist, or an Agnostic (“AAA”).

1. A person who - Does not believe in God (The God of the Bible) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

2. A person who - Does not believe in Satan (As described in the Bible) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

3. A person who - Does not believe in Angels (As existing) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

4. A person who - Does not believe in Devils (Evil spirits exist) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

5. A person who - Does not believe in Creation (The Biblical account) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

6. A person who - Does not believe that Man (Is Body, Soul, and Spirit) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

7. A person who - Does not believe in the Soul (As existing) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

8. A person who - Does not believe in man’s Spirit (As existing) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

9. A person who - Does not believe in Evil (That it exists - The Biblical concept) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

10. A person who - Does not believe in “The Fall of Man” (Bible account) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

11. A person who - Does not believe in Sin (The sinful nature of all mankind.) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

12. A person who - Does not believe in Redemption (Mankind’s need of Salvation) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

13. A person who - Does not believe in Signs, wonders, miracles (Recorded in the Bible) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

14. A person who - Does not believe in the World wide Flood (The Biblical Account) = HERETIC or {“AAA”}

15. A person who - Does not believe in Personal Accountability (Individuals responsible for their own actions) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

16. A person who - Does not believe in Judgment (That God is going to judge all of mankind.) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

17. A person who - Does not believe in Heaven (A place of Eternal Life with God) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

18. A person who - Does not believe in Hell (A place for Eternal Punishment.) = HERETIC or {“AAA”}

19. A person who - Does not believe that the Hebrews – Jews – Israel (Are God’s earthly chosen people.) = HERETIC or {“AAA”}

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST:
20. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As being the bodily manifestation of the Godhead. = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

21. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As being the fullness of the Godhead bodily. = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

22. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As the Creator of the world and the universe. = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

23. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As to his Incarnation – Miraculous Conception & Birth) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

24. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As the Jews [Hebrew] Messiah.) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

25. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As the one and only Saviour of mankind and the world.) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

26. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As Rising from the dead.) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

27. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As the only Head of the Church – His body here on earth. = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

28. A person who - Does not believe in Jesus Christ - As to His Second Coming – as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

29. A person who - Does not believe in The Blood Atonement (Jesus Christ’s shed Blood paid the price for sin – sins.) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.


30. A person who - Does not believe that a person must be Born Again (a person needs to be born again in order to enter into the Kingdom of God) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

31. A person who - Does not believe in the Church of God (Christ’s Bride – The Pillar and Ground of the Truth.) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

32. A person who - Does not believe in Biblical Marriage (God’s Institution – Between one man and one woman.) = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

33. A person who - Does not believe in the Inspiration of Scripture = a HERETIC or {“AAA”}

34. A Person who - believes you must speak in tongues in order to be saved. = a HERETIC

35. A Person who - believes that you must be Baptized (in water) in order to be saved. = a HERETIC

36. A Person who - believes that you must observe Saturday in order to be saved. = a HERETIC

37. A Person who - believes that you must observe The Law in order to be saved. = a HERETIC

38. A Person who - believes that you must be a member of their church to be in the Bride of Christ. = a HERETIC

39. A Person who - believes that there are two churches (one in Heaven & one on earth) = a HERETIC

40. A Person who - believes that a pastor is the head of the "local" church = a HERETIC

There are many more examples, and some of the brethren might differ with me on some of my definitions, but these should suffice. A heretick may be “saved” but he or she is “skating on mighty thin ice”! :eek: I’m glad that God knows people’s hearts, since often times I have a difficult time determining the difference between a heretic and an apostate.

As you can see, a heretick is “awfully close” to being an Apostate, or an Atheist, or an Agnostic, and sometimes it’s very difficult to distinguish between a heretick and an apostate. That is why we are commanded to REJECT a heretick (after the first and second admonition).

There is nothing to be gained from a heretick, no matter how much “good” he may have done (or is doing). People who are hereticks are “subverted”, and they often “subvert” those people they come in contact with. That is why we are commanded to have nothing to do with hereticks.

I have had “differences” with some brethren on this Forum over: “rightly dividing” the word; the "mysteries" of God; the two Kingdoms (the Kingdom of God & the kingdom of heaven); the “rapture”; the Great Tribulation; Dispensationalism; the different Judgments; whether a Christian can drink wine; when the soul “begins”; interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:9-12; the difference between “faith” and “belief”; the use of Dictionaries and Greek and Hebrew Lexicons in determining the meaning of a Bible word; the so-called Gap theory; Interracial Marriage; the Inspiration of the King James Bible; the difference between the Jews in Israel and elsewhere; and other matters or issues from the Bible. Just because they differ with me on these issues, I do not consider them to be hereticks and I would hope they feel the same about me.

I do not believe that every single difference between Christians constitutes “Heresy”. I can only conclude then, that a heretick is someone who professes to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Bible, but who rejects, twists, or changes a major Bible doctrine that is openly declared and clearly defined by Scripture, and recognized, understood, and accepted by the vast majority of genuine Bible believers.

I do not consider a Christian who does not believe in the King James Bible, just exactly the same way that I do, a heretick. I do not have power or “dominion” over other Christians. And I do not seek to dictate or control them.

I study the Bible and try to determine the truth from my studies. I may try to persuade others if I perceive that they may be in error, but in the end each of us is responsible to God to:
Each of us must determine for ourselves (from our studies of the Scriptures and seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance) “what is truth”. I cannot decide for someone else “what is truth”, each of us must be “fully persuaded” in our own mind.

I don’t want to be “ashamed” when I come face to face with my Saviour because I didn’t “rightly divide the word of truth”. I want God’s approval, and that is why I am extremely careful and diligent in my Bible studies – trying not to jump to unfounded conclusions or engaging in supposition, assumption, conjecture, or speculation.

I try real hard to avoid having my schooling, culture, country, or society, the media, or the world, influence my understanding of the Scriptures. I do not believe that a person can “know all there is to know” about Bible doctrine in this life, but we can try to embrace doctrine that is as pure and as sound as is humanly possible.

Someday (soon, I hope) I will come "face to face" with my Saviour, and when I do, I will no longer "know in part". Some day (soon, I hope) I will "know, even as also I am known". Someday (soon, I hope) I will be able to see "clearly", instead of "through a glass darkly".

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Until the day that My Lord returns I am determined to KNOW the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I am going to rely on the King James Bible as my sole source for "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" and it shall be my FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. And all the "naysayers" and Sophists in the world are not going to affect me in the slightest. :p Let the chips fall where they may!

Last eve I paused besides a blacksmith’s door,
And heard the anvil ring, the vesper chime.
And looking in, I saw upon the floor,
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.

“How many anvils have you had?” said I,
“To wear and batter out those hammers so?”
“Just one,” said he, and then with twinkling eye,
“The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.”

And so I thought, the Anvil of God’s Word,
For ages, skeptics blows have beat upon.
But tho the sound of falling blows is heard,
The Anvil still remains – the hammer’s gone!

HAMMER AWAY, YE REBEL BANDS!
YOUR HAMMERS BREAK – GOD’S ANVIL STANDS!

The Trinity,
1John 5v 7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Not sure how one would think otherwise.

Thanks George.

Absolutely wonderful!
 

George, this is absolutely wonderful! I am going to copy and paste this into a document for reference, as you've captured what I was taught as a child (from the King James) and have taught my son - what I've told him are the basics.

Thank you. This took time on your part and I want you to know I appreciate you for being willing to share your wisdom.

Harley

Good post Brother George. Okay. I'll admit. I had to look it up.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary

SOPH'IST, n. L. sophista.

1. A professor of philosophy; as the sophists of Greece.

2. A captious or fallacious reasoner.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Aloha brother Forrest,

If you get a chance - check out my Thread and subsequent Posts on HUMANISM:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...99&postcount=1
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...27&postcount=5
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...48&postcount=7
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=11
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...4&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=14

This is from the last Link (Post) listed from above. [04/14/2008}

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source

soph·ist – noun

1. (often initial capital letter) Greek History.

a. any of a class of professional teachers in ancient Greece who gave instruction in various fields, as in general culture, rhetoric, politics, or disputation.

b. a person belonging to this class at a later period who, while professing to teach skill in reasoning, concerned himself with ingenuity and specious effectiveness rather than soundness of argument.

2. a person who reasons adroitly and speciously rather than soundly.

3. a philosopher.

Thanks. And don't forget to change your profile location. You OKEE. :)

Brother George, your posts are always a delight, a challenge, and a blessing, but I disagree with some of your terminology in this one. I believe, however, that terminology (taxonomy, if you will) is our only point of difference.

My understanding of an apostate is that he or she has "fallen away from a standing position:" that's the Greek etymology I learned in Bible school, and it's backed up by this brief definition from the Oxford English Dictionary:

apostate: 1340, "one who forsakes his religion or faith," from L.L. apostata, from Gk. apostasia "defection, desertion, rebellion," from apostenai "to defect," lit. "to stand off," from apo- "away from" (see apo-) + stenai "to stand."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=apostate

In my understanding, an atheist or a Muslim or a Buddhist would not be an apostate (to their religion) unless they had turned away from their original "orthodox" belief. In Christian terms, the apostates are those who, having professed the Biblical truths, turn away from them, and embrace some unscriptural concept - - - or deny the faith altogether. (E.g., Osama bin Laden is probably not an "apostate" Muslim, whereas Billy Graham, if his sad senility has really led him to universalism, is an apostate.) In order to apostasize, one must have an orthodox belief to begin with.

An atheist, or a disbeliever in Jesus' Deity, is not in that position, if he/she has never been saved. Before I came to Christ, I was an atheist or an agnostic, but not an apostate; I hadn't "fallen away from" my original "standing position."

A heretic, on the other hand, is anyone who believes or espouses a heresy. It is, quite obviously, possible to be an apostate and a heretic: I think of a former Southern Baptist evangelist who embraced charismania. Or, one can be a heretic from the very beginning, like those poor unfortunates raised in the Mormon church, or some other cult. They're heretics, but not apostates.

I don't mean to quibble over inessentials, but I think this is a helpful distinction.

Can a Bible believer be a heretic? To the degree that he/she embraces a heretical doctrine, yes. But, in my heart of hearts, I think that a sincere believer in the authority of the KJB (with the emphasis on "sincere" and "authority") will eventually get the doctrine straightened out. I do not believe that anyone who maintains belief in the KJB can apostsize: the moment he embraces an apostate belief, he has, by definition, ceased to believe the KJB.

Historically, until about 15 or 20 years ago, Pentecostals clung to the KJB, and most black churches still do. But I would not define their preference for the KJB as putting them in our camp. Their allegiance, I think, was as cultural as spiritual.

As for inessentials, like Christmas trees and smoking cigarettes, I don't think that such constitutes heresy or apostasy, although it may indicate imperfect obedience!

Your inability to understand the inevitability of simple disagreements makes you a very tedious conversationalist, and your unsubstantiated claim that at least one KJB believer disbelieves in the Trinity is mischievous. The New Testament records sharp disagreements between Spirit-filled men in which neither was clearly wrong; and there are many passages about "doubtful things," like eating meats sacrificed to idols. Such matters do not always constitute apostasy or heresy. There is such a thing as Christian liberty, as you know very well: your apparent freedom of conscience to engage brothers in trifling, pedantic argumentation is a good example, although one which I would not embrace.

Hi Forrest, Harley, George, Here Am I, Vendetta Ride, and others,

Numerous questions have been forth to me about what I believe, etc. These questions are off topic in my opinion, thus I do not want to respond to them in this thread but again I openly invite anyone to email me at "brian AT tegarttech DOT com" where I will answer any questions. Some may think Im trying to avoid such questions, but I am not - I just know answering them in this thread will take things severely off topic.

George said
I agree, and thank you for clarifying your comments from your original post. However, the issue of "major" Bible doctrine implies that there are minor Bible doctrines, and that there is some distinction between the two. Often, people disagree over whether a doctrine is "major" or not.

Also, and I realize your list of 40 is only a partial list, but there are genuine heresies that could affirm things as you worded them. For example, items 20 & 21 (the closest your list comes to Trinitarian doctrines) could be affirmed by those who hold the heresies of Sabellianism (Jesus is not just the Son, but also the Father and the Holy Spirit), Docetism (Jesus's body only appeared to be human), Adoptionism (the Godhead entered Jesus at his baptism), etc. I'm not saying that this is how you meant it of course, but simply pointing out that interpretation of words, and not just the words themselves, is a crucial factor in heresy.

Vendetta Ride, I agree with most of what you wrote, but want to reply to a couple specific comments. You said:

Maybe it's just semantics, but I disagree. People "believe the KJV" all the time even when believing heresy. This does not mean the KJV teaches heresy, but rather that the more accurate way of saying what I think you meant is "the moment he embraces an apostate belief, he has, by definition, ceased to believe the correct interpretation of the KJB". Of course, this brings us full circle to my original question, of how to authoritatively know who has the correct interpretation.

It is not mischievous, it was completely relevant (as an example) to the topic at hand and the points I am making. As for substantiating the claim, the purpose of me mentioning it is not to start a witch hunt or deflect the opposition I am receiving on this forum, but rather to demonstrate how the ideas of having the correct orthodox doctrine (or eventually arriving at it) just because one is KJV-only sounds great in theory but simply doesn't happen in practice. I have encountered KJV-only supporters that vocally and agressively teach baptism is a requirement of salvation, speaking in tongues is a requirement of salvation, soul sleep, posttribulationism, Sabellianism, an unborn baby is not "a human soul" until it breaths, and numerous other doctrines that the typical KJV-only supporter would consider "heresy", and I have no reason to believe they will not continue in these doctrines for the rest of their lives. If the non-Trinitarian on this board wants to expose himself, he will. He knows who he is, and he knows that I know who he is, but I will not rise up as his accuser for the purposes of causing yet even more antagonism and schism on this board. In fact, I'm thinking I may even bid you all farewell just to allow this board to be more peaceful. I have endeavored to not be antagonistic to anyone in all of my postings here, and yet my postings seem to cause some people to get quite upset. I guess I understand why, but I wish we all could simply discuss things without all the negativity and personal attacks.

God bless,
Brian

Brian, the problem is that you disagree completely with our foundational belief in the King James Bible; without that, we have no basis for anything, doctrinal or otherwise. You need to understand that your lack of FAITH in God's word simply makes yourself an authority over it; I seriously doubt you'll admit to it, but that's exactly what you've done. I (and the others on the board) want nothing to do with someone who puts their own opinions about God's words above those words themselves: that's why you've had a cold reception ever since you got here, and more specifically since you evidenced that you're without reason when it comes to the Scriptures.

You're welcome to stay, in my opinion: it's good to have someone of your persuasion for young Christians to see how confused modern perversion proponents are. But as far as unity and peace goes, your presence is one of the biggest things being an hindrance.

[QUOTE=peopleoftheway;13011]First before I answer this quote may I address the Brethren first, George Forrest, Chette, Luke, Stephen, pbiwolski, Here am I, Renee, Billie, Tim and many more who I have come to be blessed by on this forum.
Apologies that I am not on here much as I still have no internet at home and do not wish to post in active topics when my reply to them is limited, but reading over the forums lately I have to post on this topic if I may.






Hi People;)

Thanks for your kind words, we miss you and pray that you'll have your internet up at home very soon. And we value your input on the topics.
Nice to hear from you.

Blessings to you and family,

Billie

MC1171611,

Again, my personal beliefs are not the topic of this thread. Your comments contain several errors (strawmen) about my position, and if you or anyone else really want to discuss my position rather than just try to publicly oppose me for whatever reason you have, you are more than welcome to email me.

God bless,
Brian

Prov. 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"
 

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"

Aloha brother VR,

Thanks so much for the compliment. I also have enjoyed your Posts (especially your sense of humor), and I appreciate any and all comments or suggestions that you may make. {I have never claimed "infallibility" for my Posts - Like I do for my Bible . :D}

I believe that we really are not very far apart on our understanding of the difference between an Apostate and a Heretick.

I believe that an Apostate is someone that has abandoned (or forsaken) his/her religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines) entirely, or nearly so. And who (normally) embraces a new or different religion or sect (beliefs or doctrines - often in opposition to what he/she believed before.)

While a Heretick is someone who professes to believe in a particular religion or sect but who twists, or changes, or subtracts or adds to one or more (but not many) major tenants of that religion or sect.

I don't think that I did a very good job expressing what I believe in the Post (limited space - is just as good as any other excuse :D). However I will endeavor to explain myself more fully in the following. For example I Posted:

1. A person who - Does not believe in God (The God of the Bible) = an APOSTATE, Atheist or Agnostic.

It would have been more self-explanatory had I perhaps done it this way:

1. A person who - Does not believe in God (The God of the Bible) = an Atheist, or an Agnostic, or (possibly) an APOSTATE.

The point that I was trying to get across is that (Biblically) while it is possible for an Apostate to walk away from (forsake) his religion or sect (for example - not believe in God anymore), a Heretick (Biblically) cannot do that without becoming an Apostate. {Whereupon they lose their "heretick" status and become something else!} :rolleyes:

I didn't mean to "lump" Apostates with Atheists and Agnostics as being the same. But I can see where someone could have gotten the impression (from my Post) that all Apostates do not believe in God, and instead, what I was trying to convey is that an Apostate (Biblically) can (possibly) hold to a belief that there is no God, but a Heretick (Biblically) cannot. Thus the whole purpose was to try to differentiate between the two.

There is a "line" that a Heretick must cross in order to become an Apostate and the purpose of the Post was to try to illustrate that "line". or "lines", (said "illustrations", I in no way claim to be "perfect")

Although there is a fine line between the two - Someone who is an Apostate cannot possibly be a Heretick, since an Apostate turns his/her back on their religion (beliefs or doctrines) and forsakes it, while the Heretick will hang in there and pretend that he/she believes what everyone else in his/her religion or sect believes, but in reality they do not believe EVERYTHING that they profess to believe. {In other words a Heretick is a "wolf in sheep's clothing", while an Apostate is a "wolf" in wolf's clothing!}

It's pretty easy to spot an Apostate, while on the other hand, a Heretick is "horse of another color"!:llama:{a "false brethren" perhaps?}

I would think that all Cults and Religions that profess to believe in God (or a god) Mormons, JW's, etc,; Islam, Baha'i, etc.; are not technically "atheist", since they profess to believe in "god", I would classify them under the title of unbelievers or non-believers.

Your comments on "major" or "minor" doctrines is well taken, and that is why I listed most of (what I consider) the "major" doctrines in my Post (although I couldn't Post all) - and certainly there may be some that genuine Bible believers may disagree on, but I think most reasonable believers could come to an agreement on most.

I have a question though about your take on "Mormons" or "other Cults" - If they never believed the Truth (The Gospel and the Major Biblical Doctrines) I cannot understand how they can be "heretics" (in the Biblical sense), since they never believed the Truth in the beginning?

I believe that if we were to sit down and hash this thing out face to face (verbally), that there wouldn't be one iota's difference between us.

Again brother, let me say (sincerely) that I appreciate any and all input from brethren that I know who are also sincere (present company accepted!) I am willing to be corrected anytime, since I desire to embrace as pure doctrine as I possibly can.

Your criticisms are appreciated and please don't hesitate to comment on my Posts. I may be an "old curmudgeon", but I'm a good listener when it comes to brethren that I respect and care for. {"Humanists", "Sophists", and "Heretics" are another story.} :pound:

God bless you, brother, you're probably right. And even if you're wrong, even if we do disagree over terminology, so what? Obviously, we're on the same page. The Heavens do not quake, and the earth does not shudder, if we're not on precisely the same paragraph.

Right. Except that an apostate need not embrace a new theology or ideology; he may simply cease (consciously) to believe in any system at all. (Behaviorally, and practically, he will, like all human beings, hew to whatever personal standards suit his temperament and desires, be they altruistic or hedonistic.) A "Christian" who ceases to believe in Christ does not need to embrace Buddha in order to be an apostate: it's the departure from the faith that defines him as an apostate, not the arrival at some new belief.

Um, perhaps. Joseph Smith and the Popes are good examples:they claim to believe in the Biblical revelation, but then add their own accretions. However, I would hesitate to call Ian Paisley a "heretic" because he believes in TULIP and baby-sprinkling, nor would I call a charismatic a "heretic" for believing his own daffy conceits. Such people, I believe, are sincerely mistaken: some out of ignorance (a kid raised in a Foursquare Gospel church), some out of intellectual pride or stubbornness (the typical Reformed elder).

Now, I believe that the baby-sprinklers and the faith-healers each believe in certain heresies: but that does not make them genuine heretics in my judgment. To me, a full-blown heretic is one who has utterly abandoned the foundational truths of Scripture, in favor of his own mad whims. Most Calvinists and charismatics aren't that far gone. I have brothers in each group who are, false modesty aside, far better Christians than I; and I will rip out my tongue by its tender young roots before I will call them "heretics." But, sitting at the table with my dear brother Keith the Charismatic, I will say, plainly, "Brother Keith, you're talking heresy."

This is a fine, fine line I'm treading, and if it is invisible to some, I'm not surprised.

My reservations about the atheist/agnostic examples are simple: what if the man or woman never believed in God to begin with? He or she cannot be said to have "apostasized." They haven't "fallen away" from anything.

(In my previous post, I said that this was my position before I was saved. I must retract that statement, or amend it, lest I grieve the Holy Spirit. It is conceivable that I was saved at 11 or 12. I believe that I was saved exactly one month before my 20th birthday; but there's a real possibility that I first believed as an adolescent. If I did, then I was an apostate [although saved] throughout my teenaged years.)

That's good enough (or bad enough): we needn't be more precise in our taxonomy than the Scriptures. God divides mankind into three groups: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God (1 Cor. 10:32). Mormons and Bahais and atheists and Democrats are Gentiles, unless born Jewish. We're the church of God, by His grace.

In my own day-to-day thinking, of course, I just think, like my old Presbyterian pastor, in terms of Christians and pagans. That gives me more than enough to think about!

God bless you, brother. Thank you for helping to sharpen my all-too-often dull iron.

:)


I was not asking you to name the non-Trinitarian, and in fact I commend you for not doing so. I also freely acknowledge the point that many genuine heretics prefer the KJB. But, in this forum, when we (too loosely, perhaps) refer to "Bible believers," we're referring to people who have submitted to the Book's absolute and final authority: charismatics and "black theology" people, while often using the KJB, have not truly done that. Am I "judging" them? No, I'm judging their beliefs, and quite cheerfully dismissing them - - - along with the fruits they produce.

As to your own choice of venue for your further reflections, it is a matter of small consequence to me. I wish you well, and expect to spend eternity with you. But I'm not interested in bandying words with you from now 'til then.

Yes, and worse---he has a forum which devotes a fair amount of space and time attempting to cast doubt on the inerrancy of our Bible. It's just... creepy. :smash:

What we believe is never off topic.

YOUR CONDITION WITHOUT CHRIST

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one (Romans 3:10).

Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one (Job 14:4).

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? (Job 15:14).

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me (Psalm 51:5).

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Romans 5:12).

CHRIST’S PROVISION FOR SIN

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1Timothy 2:3-6).

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9).

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction (2 Peter 2:1).

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world (1 John 4:14).

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men (Titus 2:11).

HOW TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already [now], because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:18).

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24).

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst (John 6:35).

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47).

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water (John 7:38).

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26).

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness (John 12:46).

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16).

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus (Romans 3:26).

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

YOU CAN BE SURE

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:11-13).

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand (John 10:28).

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Re: " Heresies & Hereticks"
 

Aloha brother VR,

I thank you again for your response.

I don't mean to drag this thing out, and I'm not trying to play a semantical game here, but perhaps a little more " clarification" (on my part) is in order. If we were face to face, I'm sure that we would have already dispensed with the whole issue and moved on to other things. {Like: Perhaps a cup of coffee (for you) & a cup of tea (for me)}:)

I wrote:To which you replied:
I can see where I still didn't express myself quite clearly enough. So I will try once again: Biblically speaking - I believe that in order for a man to qualify as an heretick (in the Biblical sense [Acts 24:14] of the word), he must first have believed the "Truth of God" and embraced it; but he (at some point) ends up twisting, or changing, or subtracting, or adding to one or more major tenants (doctrines) of the Faith (but not many - not even a majority).

I believe that perhaps the best example of a true Biblical Heretick would be Simon (the former sorcerer -Acts 8:1-24). The Scriptures say about Simon: "Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." [Acts 8:13 ] Now Simon was a "believer" - BUT, through covetousness, he desired "POWER", and thought he could "purchase" it (contrary to the word of God, i.e. true "doctrine") and Peter's condemnation of him was swift & harsh! Peter instantly "rejected" him:
Acts 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
To which Simon replied: "Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me." [Acts 8:24]

Peter never said that Simon lost his salvation, but he did condemn him and pronounced that he (Simon) was in a terribly bad fix. Why? Because his heart was not right! And why was that? Because he mistakenly "thought" (false doctrine) that he could "buy" the Gift of God. It would appear (from Acts 8:24) that after Peter's "first admonition", Simon truly repented of his sin. For me to comment past this would entail speculation on my part - which I try to avoid like the plague.

I believe that Hymenaeus and Alexander were also hereticks:
1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Please notice: #1. "which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander" These men were "putting away" (changing the truth?) "concerning faith". And #2. Paul "delivered" them "unto Satan" (rejected them), just like he commanded the Corinthian brethren to do with any man, who is called a brother, that is a fornicator, idolater, railer, drunkard, or extortioner:
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:9 Iwrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Which he commanded Titus to do with a "heretic" also. {Titus 3:10];

I also believe that Hymenaeus {2nd. mention} and Philetus were hereticks:
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
These men were saying that the "resurrection" was already past! {A "heresy" - if there ever was one!}. Were they hereticks? I believe so. Were they also "false teachers? For sure!

I believe that Alexander the coppersmith (2nd. mention? - 1Timothy 1:20) was also a heretick:
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

Notice: Any man, who is called a brother, that is a fornicator, idolater, railer, drunkard, or extortioner (all sins of the flesh) is to be rejected (1Corinthians 5:13)! The same goes for a heretick, although his sin has to do with believing in and following a "false way" i.e. a false doctrine (and possibly promulgating it amongst the brethren).

Heresy has to do with WORDS - False and perverse words that are destructive to the hearer; that eat away like a canker; and, as far as God is concerned, words which also subvert the heretick himself! :eek:

Whew! :redface: I said all that to say I don't believe the Joe Smith or the Popes "qualify" as true "heretics" since they never believed "the truth of God" in the first place. I would classify them as "False Profits" instead.

I believe most of what you said above, but your statement: "To me, a full-blown heretic is one who has utterly abandoned the foundational truths of Scripture, in favor of his own mad whims." has me puzzled, since it seems to me that that is a description (or definition) of an Apostate.

I must have not made myself clear in regards to your statement above, because I tried to clarify (in my last Post) that I wasn't saying that Atheists or Agnostics were ever Apostates. What I tried to convey is that an Apostate often has a whole lot in common with Atheists and Agnostics.

I believe, like you, that true Atheists and Agnostics are not Apostates, since they never fell away from any thing.

Sorry for the long posts. :eek: Like I said before, if we had the opportunity (which I would truly relish) to meet face to face we would have "hashed this issue out" in less than an hour - either agreeing to disagree, or coming together in unity.

I see, now, what you meant about agnostics/atheists. And you are undoubtedly correct that we could hash this out in short order over a cup of tea - - - although I'd prefer Coca-Cola to either tea or coffee! Old habits die hard...

We don't really disagree on the main points. Whether we designate these people as heretics or apostates, we're to avoid their company, not wish them "godspeed," and, above all, not join their number!

God bless you, brother! How I enjoy and appreciate these exchanges!

:)