That's why sometimes one wonders who the real "ultras" are?:D

Church Ordinances
 

Hello brother Biblestudent,

It is virtually impossible to keep up with all the threads and posts on this forum! My time for such is very limited, but occasionally I’ll hurriedly pop in and out on some of the threads that catch my attention and such was the case when spotting your response to Luke and Easy E concerning understanding dispensations. On top of being delighted to have found such a web site in support of the KJV, I’m tickled to see so many in this forum that sees Pauline distinction… such as in your case. Obviously, there will be differences even among those that see the uniqueness of Paul’s ministry and message.

Our positions are very similar on Paul. In fact I will say that they were identical at one time, but with just a little variation today. I have some questions concerning your position that baptism with water is yet an ordinance today.

For argument sake… let’s say that baptism is an ordinance today. I am very curious as to what you do in your church in regards to administering this ordinance. I’ve been around long enough to know why something is done in view of what is done, but since your position is different, from most, in that you thoroughly understand the fact that others were sent and Paul was not and yet he did baptize with water, I can then only guess at what you practice.

I hope you don’t mind me asking these questions and am sure that others coming across this thread will benefit from the fact they too may need to understand any difference between those who were sent to baptize from he who wasn’t and yet still did and what are any distinctions. Hope that last sentence made sense. :)

Since I’m looking for ‘what’ and not ‘why’ your response to each question can be short; perhaps most of them in a word. Maybe after your response I will have a ‘why’ question.

1. Who in your church administers this ordinance? I’m looking for an office here if applicable.

2. Do you administer this ordinance immediately upon one’s profession of faith?

3. Which baptismal ‘formula’ (in whose name) do you administer this ordinance?

4. How (mode) do you administer this ordinance?

5. Do you require this ordinance for your church membership?

6. Do you accept another professing Christian into membership regardless of how (mode) they were baptized and what denomination they come from?

Thanks brother!

Stvvv1611
2 Timothy 2:15

PS Oh… I may have some fun with you on Paul ‘re-baptizing’ in Acts 19 ;)

In my searchings, I have found different views of many different issues.
But, I must say, that in the process of searching, the Holy Spirit has taught me allot, but not before taking me on a ride through all those different views.

You see, in order to learn anything, we must be treated to an opposing view in order to see the differences of things , thereby which, we can make a decision on the matter.

If we have been instructed all of our lives on only one way of believing, than we have learned nothing.

But when we venture out of that envelope, box, we begin to learn.

I said all that to set up my next statement.

Dispensations, is a term denoting, in my opinion, a departure from the norm in that different sections of time are divided into letters to, such as to each earth age.

In other words, somethings pertained to one earth age and not to another.

All well and a good study because in learning about it just increases our knowledge and either helps us move on or we get stuck on it.

Frankly, I moved on to find what I believe to be an understanding which fits the scope of Gods work in mankind.

I would not bind myself to anyone belief until I would have looked at as many as I could first, and in prayer, seek Gods help in understanding.

One thing is of a surety, and that is if one places ones trust in Jesus, we have a solid foundation of which there can be no shaking.

Peace>>>AJ

1. In my church, the pastor administers the ordinance.
2. We administer this ordinance after a person is saved and is willing to be baptized.
3. We baptize in the "name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". Others baptize in the "name of Jesus".
4. We baptize by immersion.
5. We require this ordinance for church membership.
6. If they understood salvation before they were baptized by immersion, we accept them into membership.

[QUOTE=Greektim;4392]I hope you didn't mean what you said here, Luke. These kind of statements are what give Dispo's a bad name. The Bible never teaches 2 ways of salvation. Nor is that a teaching propagated in Dispensationalism. That is not exactly accurate. Because People have not been saved the same way through all time. Yes God has always used grace, but it is what goes with faith that changes. In the OT, Especially during the time of Law, from moses to the cross, Salvation was Faith plus works(hence the sacrificing of animals for forgiveness of sins), now during the Curch age, from Calvary to the Rapture, we are in an age of grace, which is Salvation of grace through faith, during this time, you can not earn salvation, were as in the OT, you had to have works, plus faith. But during the tribulation, it will once again be a Salvation by faith and works system, I don't fully understand it but I know the Bible says so, and then during the mellenium it will be only works, because faith will not be required because the Lord Jeus will be ruling in Jeruselum.
As far as Dispensationalism, I recomend you read a book by Clarence Larken, called Dispensational truth. He wrote this in the 20's and it is very good. Brother Larken backes everything up with Scripture and I haven't found any contridictions with what he teaches and with what the Scriptures say. I am a Pre-millennialist which means that I believe that we are pre Millennium, and also pre-tribulation, there is also A-Millennialism, and also Post-Millennialists, Post believe that we are after the Millennium while A-Millennalists believe that the Millennium which is a general time, and not actually a kingdome. Of course if you read Revelation 19, God clearly states that it will be a kingdome, a phisical actuall kingdom.
I hope this helps Luke, now realize that even Pre-Millennialism isn't perfect, but it hold alot more than does A- or Post Millennialism.
Have a Good day in the Lord,
Josh:)

Joshjefflawn,

If we were to try to understand the reason for the consequences in the creation of humanity, we would understand that all fall under those consequences regardless of race, color or religion.

That is the first creation as you well pointed out as under the law.

But now and as 2,000 plus years ago, a new creation begun under grace, again as you pointed it out.

The new creation corrects the conditions or the consequences initiated by the creation of humanity, mainly death in separation from God.

This new creation is a new Adam, a body that God the Father chose by which all humanity could fall under and receive grace for salvation of their souls.

There can be but one body only, of which is made up of many membered bodies and Jesus being the head of that body.

If we can comprehend all that in faith, then there is no other way for salvation,and one in which is an irrevocable and permanent condition .

Once we are born again, as in the second Adam, the new creation, we are or we become new creatures.

We can not, let me state again, we can not become unborn, once we are born again, because salvation is not dependent on our faith, works, but in Gods faith granted us for salvation.

It is a gift.

The gift is: For us to be able to exercise the image of God (Meaning, having the ability to exercise free will, good and evil) without the separation of eternal damnation.

Only God could have given us that ability and to have taken away the penalty of being separate from Him, by giving us a vehicle to become one with Him. (Jesus)

Peace>>>AJ

First the reason we are in the state that we are is because Eve was decieved, and Adam rebelled againsed God. (by the way, that senario is a type of christ, Adam a [a type of christ] gives him self for Eve [a type of the church] dies and then reunites with Eve outside of Eden). After that man could no longer speak to God directly because man because we were tainted by sin.
Then God continued to try to deal with man in new ways, first he tried dealing with man by dealing with his concience, at first it worked well, but it ultimitly ended in the total apostasy and ended in the flood.
Then after the flood to the Tower of Bable, God delt with man through human government, and again, at first man did well, but again it ended in total apostasy and God had to divid man at the Tower of Bable, then we have God using the Patriarcs, from Abraham, to Joesoph, but again ends in apostacy when the children of Israiel become slaves. Then God decides to deal with man by the Law, from Moses at the Mount of Zion, and lasted untill total apostacy at the Cross at Calvary. When Jesus gave his life on the cross, and rose from the dead, and then after the asention, God began to deal with man by grace. As you see every dispensation since the gargen of Eden, first begane perfect, but ends in total apostacy. The same will be for the age of Grace, at the rapture.
That is Pre Millenialism in a nut shell.
I hope that helps.

Can you see the creation of mankind (Adam and Eve) as less than perfect because of knowledge?

If you can, you will understand why only God could save His own creation.

It had to be a perfect man to annul the consequences of the gaining of knowledge in the first creation.

That is why there is a new creation, for we must have to be born again, as in spirit, to attain it, and that we have attained it by grace of which only God could do, otherwise, some may boast of their own righteousness.

Peace>>>AJ

That was the reason why God tried Adam and Eve, to give them a chance to be perfect. If Eve would have resisted the Devil, and Adam would have obeyed God, regardless of what migh happen, Adam and eve would have been perfect.
But because Eve was deveived and Adam chose to disobey God, we became sin. Because of that, as you say God if he was going to save his people he had to save them himself. That is why God sent his only Begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, who was born of a Virgin. The fact that he was born of a Virgin is ever so important. You see, if Jesus would have been born just as anyother human being, his birth would have just been another birth and nothing speacial. The most important reason was this. Sin is in the blood of every human being. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23
That is why any human being that is born of a woman if that person lives past the age of accountability and dies without the Lord Jesus Chirst will pay for his sins for all eternity in hell, and then the Lake of Fire. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:", Rom 5:12 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." Rom 5:17
If the Lord Jesus Christ had the blood of Joeseph in his veins, he would been guilty of sin because we are all under sin that are born of the flesh, but because he was a born of a Virgin, he wasn't tainted with mans blood because he had God's blood.
You see the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, and he saves us by his grace. But we can in no wise recieve grace from God untill we believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ"
Salvation is open to all who will believe, but you must by your own will chose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God will not force anyone to believe on his son the Lord Jesus, you must chose to do so by your own will. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". John 3:16
Have a good day, I hope this helps,
Josh

[QUOTE=joshjefflawn;5536]God bless Bro, and thankyou :)

I think you'll find that Post Millennialists don't believe that we are living after the Kingdom, but rather, that Jesus will return after a spiritual reign, and that the church will usher in the eternal kingdom, by preparing this earth for God, or some nonsense. Post Mil is decidedly Catholic. They often claim we are living in the Millennial Kingdom now (Jesus in our hearts), and that after a great apostasy at the end of this age (leaving Rome), their will be a great revival (a return to Rome), and Jesus will return.

It's something dumb like that.

Let me take this one sentence of yours and lets look at your words “to give them a chance to be perfect”.

If God wanted me to learn how to swim wouldn’t He throw me into the water?
I mean, to be perfect, would mean to walk on the water and never get to learn anything, much less experience learning what it is to swim. (Struggle)

So God designed it to where we had to struggle to learn, and the only way to do that is to place us on earth, a place where all flesh including the animals have to struggle to survive.

Nothing can be gained in a perfect state, there must be an opposite, to measure the difference of accomplishment.

If God did not tell you that you were going to be born into a world that lives only for the pleasure of it, then He deceived you and I.

Its like falling into a trap without us knowing at first, but then He provides a way of escape, but not before first learning about it.

Now your getting the picture!

Again, your right on!

Quote:

The most important reason was this. Sin is in the blood of every human being. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23

Yes, again!

OK, here is where you do not understand an important point.
The point is that mankind can not of it self save itself by any thing mankind does, so that places everybody in the same boat, hopeless.

So that God now can become our savior, save us by removing the stigma of eternal damnation to all of humanity, not just those who know Him personally, but all those who don’t either.

Quote:

…and then the Lake of Fire. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:", Rom 5:12 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." Rom 5:17

God is an all consuming fire, and consumes all sin as goal is tried 7 times to pure gold.

So the lake of fire is a metaphor for Gods consuming fire, to where if it were not so, then lets all give up, for only Gods righteousness can save us.

God’s spirit, because God has no blood.

Quote:

You see the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, and he saves us by his grace. But we can in no wise receive grace from God until we believe on his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ"

God gave us an option, and that option is without penalty, for Jesus paid for that option for us.

The option is to believe or not to believe, which shall it be?

Don’t confuse Gods deliverance of our souls with the works we do, for our works are as filthy rags.

So that means, whether we are righteous nor not, He still saves us, because it is He whose righteousness saves us, and not ours.

So what difference then is there?

Allot of difference, in that our own righteousness is rewarded here on earth, and our unrighteousness is met with consequences, still will be saved.

Quote:

Salvation is open to all who will believe, but you must by your own will choose to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God will not force anyone to believe on his son the Lord Jesus; you must chose to do so by your own will. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". John 3:16>>>Josh

Yes, to “want” to believe in Jesus means entrance into His kingdom while yet in this body of flesh, but if not, then we suffer without Him until we die, and then we shall be redeemed, because He paid the price and not us.


The responsibility to save us is Gods, not ours.
Our responsibility is to learn to be like Him by trial and error, as you might know, that this world can be hell for many people.

Peace>>>AJ

Wow Aj, that is an impressive piece of wresting the scriptures!

God has no blood? Acts 20:28? Wow, why do you even post on a forum about the Bible when you don't believe in the Bible?

Let me be clear. Your 'doctrine' will send people to Hell. Yes it exists. It is not a metaphor. Read Luke 16. Verse 24 does not say,

"And in a metaphor for God's consuming fire he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Your ideas do not fit what the verse actually says. If your ideas are true (which they aren't) don't do anything and it won't matter because we will all end up in heaven anyways. I would advise you to stop posting and I will do the same.

Good day to you.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Was God in the flesh? If yes, then Jesus had blood. But the blood was shed, for:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Jesus had blood because of the flesh, but God doesn't, for He is Spirit.

Jesus shed His blood for us, then He was resurrected without blood.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


EasyE, You do understand that there is a spiritual picture painted in all the stories in the bible?

If we look only at the human story side of the stories, we are limited to just what those stories tell us, but if we look at the spiritual side of those stories, we see a different picture, and that is a spiritual picture painted of God's works.

Can you give me the spiritual picture of Christ in Jonah and the whale story?

Would you say that in order for Jesus to forgive "all" sin, He must "consume all of it" before He could forgive it?

Do you think that Jesus could of have called ten thousand angels to His rescue?

He didn't why? Because He had to consume it all in complete surrender, otherwise, how could He teach forgiveness as a gift of God?

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

JOB 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and
said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

I alone , Jesus, as fallen from Heaven to the earth, have consumed all sin in order to forgive it.

And I alone have escaped:
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Jesus' having the sins of the world has been forgiven, thus offering us the righteousness of God for our salvation.

Let's look in all of it, at the works of God (At the spiritual side) and you will find God to be more loving than a condemning God.

A consuming fire in spiritual terms is a cleansing fire, as in the fire of Christ burning within us, burning away the dross, the hay ans stubble.

As in the tongues of fire:
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Cloven tongues? Hmmmmm?

Peace>>>AJ

Aj, first I must say that I notice that you don't give any Bible reference for any of your arguments. If you are a Bible believer you should always back your self up with scripture. When you don't you sound as though you are your own athourity, and the Bible should be your final athourity.
You teaching someone that it doesn't matter wether or not someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because God's grace will save you, even if your live your life Blaspheming God and cursing his name and his Son, the Lord Jesus. You are putting your self in a dangerous position.
You are either calling God a liar, because the person who speakes the most about hell in the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus preached more about hell because he did not want you to go there. Now either God is lying considering that Jesus is God the Son, God in the flesh, the Word, Jehova, and the great I AM. Or your bearing your lying.
Considering that God is perfect with out error, (and so is his word by the way, the AV1611.) he can not and will not lie, so there for hell is real and you are decieveing dear souls who may other wise be led to the saving knowlege of Jesus Christ.
You can not enter heaven unless you believe on the Lord Jesus.
" ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:11-15
You see, Hell is real, death is real, Heaven is real and the Lake of Fire is real.
Where you spend eternity is all depenent on what you do with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will believe on him and trust in him, you shall live forever with him in eternity. But if you or any body living, from the Cross of Christ till the rapture, if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will face a wrath full and angry God. "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
Have a Good day,
Josh

Quote:

Aj, first I must say that I notice that you don't give any Bible reference for any of your arguments. If you are a Bible believer you should always back your self up with scripture. When you don't you sound as though you are your own authority and the Bible should be your final authority.>>>Josh

The bible is my only authority an one from which I base all my views from.
I do give bible references many times, but in cases where there are believers, many of the things I say are known to the believers.

God is a consuming fire is referenced and many believers have knowledge of that verse, but look at it differently.
My view of a consuming fire of God is His unconditional love, one which can forgive the most ardent sinner.

Quote:

You teaching someone that it doesn't matter whether or not someone believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because God's grace will save you, even if your live your life Blaspheming God and cursing his name and his Son, the Lord Jesus. You are putting your self in a dangerous position.>>>Josh

Josh, considering your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures, which I acknowledge as admirable, I believe that my views presently are in direct accordance with the works of God as per His word.

You may not readily understand what I just said, because one has to understand where I’ve been, how I got to where I am at, and what, I believe the Lord has revealed to me.

God is greater than what humanity has given Him credit for, I mean in forgiveness of the greatest offenses.

True, there is human disobedience of which meets with dire consequences, but God made provisions for the soul of mankind simply because mankind had no choice in the matter. (Hence the free gift)

Ref: Fittingly, Paul who knew more than what He was able to say understood some deep truths and of which gave us some clues, here’s one: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Couple that verse with the story of Adam and Eve and you will begin to understand just what the tree of knowledge is and how mankind was subjected to it without its will, and at the same time see how Gods work worked to free mankind up by later providing that other tree of knowledge, the tree of life, which we all know it is Jesus.

I look at the story of Gods works from the top down and not from the bottom up.
From the bottom up we can only see through a glass darkly because of the lack of revelation by the Holy Spirit, but when He does reveal to us blessed truths, then we begin to see through the glass clearly.

When that happens, then there is no longer any fear because there is wisdom in understanding of knowledge.

Quote:

You are either calling God a liar, because the person who speaks the most about hell in the Bible is the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus preached more about hell because he did not want you to go there. Now either God is lying considering that Jesus is God the Son, God in the flesh, the Word, Jehovah, and the great I AM. Or you’re bearing your lying. >>>Josh

Llt me explain how to understand or look at that.

Prior to Jesus going to the cross, Jesus had to meet every dot and cross every T in prophecy, meaning that everything remained the same as far as the souls of mankind were concerned.

But, after Jesus paid the price, there no longer remaineth a penalty for sin keeping us from our eternal destiny.
Ref: Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

What it is saying here which is consistent with the forgiveness of sins by God, is that there is no longer a sacrifice for sins preventing us from gaining heaven.

The sins we do commit, are required of us while we are yet alive, for the wages of those sins is death of the body and not the soul.

That’s the good news; the problem being is that we have not proclaimed it in a loving manner, but rather in a way which alienates by the use of fear, mainly the fear of hell.

Quote:

Considering that God is perfect with out error, (and so is his word by the way, the AV1611.) he can not and will not lie, so there for hell is real and you are deceiving dear souls who may other wise be led to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.>>>Josh

If I say Jesus took death and hell away in order to save us, is that deciveing?
Ref:
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Jesus was accused of blaspheming did they not? Why? Could it be that they were blinded, deceived in order for God to work His work?

Ref: Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Likewise, I am accused of blasphemy too because of my understanding and you’re understanding me not.

You can not enter heaven unless you believe on the Lord Jesus. >>>Josh

That is an absolute truth!

" ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev 20:11-15
You see, Hell is real, death is real, Heaven is real and the Lake of Fire is real.>>>Josh

Yes its real, only if one can not see passed the glass darkly.

What do you suppose the fate of all those souls who lived and died who have not had the privilege of knowing that there was even a God, much less knowing who Jesus was?
You think God created them only to abandon them? Of course not? So God had them on hold, suspended between heaven and earth, called hell.

There Jesus went to visit them, to give them the same life given to us as a gift.


Where you spend eternity is all dependent on what you do with the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will believe on him and trust in him, you shall live forever with him in eternity. But if you or any body living, from the Cross of Christ till the rapture, if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will face a wrath full and angry God. "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
Have a Good day,
Josh>>>Josh

Again Josh, look at the timing of those words, was it before Jesus went to the cross or after the cross, which is it?

How could believing in the Son prior to His sacrifice give them life? Was it not by the sacrifice that we now have life?

Is a forgiving, loving God wrathful and condemning? Does forgiveness and condemnation not cancel themselves out?

But if we reverse those two and place condemnation first, then forgiveness, we’ll we not have life then?

I am looking to give some deeper nuggets of understanding only to those who would seek a deeper knowledge of God, as I have.

The span of separation (hell) has been bridged, no longer holding prisoners.
…. “; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them…”.
Where are they?

Sorry for being so long, but I had to address your concerns.

Peace>>>AJ

Dispensationalism is a form of Study (Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth) that men or women make distinctions between was applicable in the Past, what is applicable today and what is applicable in the future.

though all the Bible is written to us is is not ALL FOR us.

Rightly dividing the Word allows us to see how God is dealing differently with men today than he did in the past and how He will in the future.

failure to use this kind of study leads people to Sabbath Day Rest as a way to please God and giet his favor. also some have you being a vegetarian because Adam was after the fall. but the NT tells us those who would teach you to abstain from meat are teaching Doctrines of Devils.

those of you who use the scriptures for Sabbath Day Rest on Saturday would not submit to Mat 5 where it says give unto him that asketh and to him that borrow turn not away.

Can you give me an explanation for your 3 sevens chette?

Rightly dividing the word; could it be making a distinction between mans views and Gods?

Every person worships as their heart dictates, whether on Saturday, Sunday or any day of the week.

For God looks at the heart and not the day, the meat, the stance, race, color, religion.

Peace>>>AJ

No rightly dividing God's word is according to his word and your diligent study of it. the Holy Ghost teaches all things pertaining to doctrine and God's Word. but when we are not right with God we can get off base with His Word.

I am not saying anyone should worship on the sabbath only or rest on that day only. I pointed out how others have come up with Bad Doctrine by not rightly dividing. and that being some of it. but you are right, any day is fine as long as your right with God on it. but those who would say we have the mark of the beast because we don't worship or rest on Satuday are teaching a false dactrine. and those who would say we are sinners because we eat meat and tell their congregations they must abstain from it are teaching doctrines of devils according to the scriptures. Both those doctrines come from not rightly dividing the word of truth.

I agree God looks at the heart of every living soul only those who are his have a special privilge to have the Holy Ghost living in them to teach them and to help them study the word of God. an unsaved person can learn only one true thing from the Bible, Salvation. and if they don't get salvation the rest of the Bible is hard for them to understand and they will twist it to their own diestruction.

As far as My three Sevens I dont have any. I worship everyday, I rest when I can, I do my best abstain from all things that are sinful or give the appearance of Sin. I eat anything placed in front of me as long as it contains no blood or human flesh, and I sanctify it by the word and Prayer.

I as well as all Christians are a speacial group of people meant to be Christ's glory and to glorify our Lord for all eternity.

May you continue to glorify him as well.

There has to be something to dispensation, because God told Noah to build an arc, does that mean that you should build an arch. You may if you want to, but It wouldn't save you from anything, and of course God wasn't telling you to build an archa because God is not going to flood the earth again. Genesis 9
Also Moses could not have done what Romans 10:9 says because he did not no the name of the Lord Jesus Christ because God had not revealed that to him. He new that God would provide a saviour, even Job said "I know that my redemer livith" Job 27. Also Abrahams bosom is also prof that the old testement saint was not saved as we are now.

joshjefflawn

great observations of how dispensational study works.

Nor would any submit to Matthew 5:42 basically says to give to him that ask and to him that would borrow turn not away.

Reply to post 58

Hi Brother Chette,

I couldn't resist:

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

It is good to worship everyday, not just a special day, it is hard at times but when God is the center of your life, and you offer everything you do (at the start of the day:o and I don't) as unto the Lord, worship is ever present.


In God's love'
Renee

Renee, your quote from Acts was an instruction to the new Gentile believers and their churches. They were coming out of terrible customs, and needed some "shock treatment" as well as some basic guidelines. Read what Paul by the Holy Ghost says to these same Gentiles later:As always, we should never take any passage of the Scriptures and isolate it away from the rest, for the Book is one and speaks as one. Yes, there are passages that must be understood in context and not necessarily applied literally. How would we handle the following? Should it be read as a principle of personal responsibility and cleanliness, or must we carry a "pooper-scooper" on our belts (or weapon to be exact)?Now, Chette, with respect to borrowing/loaning in Matthew not applying to us. It appears to me that the early church in Jerusalem understood Jesus' words to apply to them:I think that those who try to make Matthew 5-7 apply only to some future period of time and not for today are really missing God's blessings. This is the greatest problem with Dispensationalism for me. Great portions of Scripture that should be the way of life for us today are claimed to be reserved for some other time.

How does one tell what verses are to be taken literally rather than by principle? Simple - Talk to the One Whose Words they are. (See Romans 14)

P.S. Chette, anytime you are in Gainesville, you are welcome to stay at my house as long as you wish. As for the money, remember that the Scriptures say, "But whoso hath this world's good,..." I don't hath any money, so I'm off the hook on that one. (That is, of course, if I John counts today. :) )

Brother Tim (and I take the Brother part very seriously! :)),

Why are we commanded to divide it?

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The problem is, the passages you do not want to apply literally did apply literally to someone else (or will). There are spiritual truths for me in Mosaic law, but those laws literally applied to Israel.

Exactly -- Acts is transitional, from the Kingdom Gospel to Paul's Gospel. Paul hadn't yet been revealed the Mystery (which nobody knew about before Paul, Eph 3). Prior to Stephen's stoning, the Kingdom was still "at hand." Jesus was literally standing at the right hand of God (Ac 7:55), still ready to claim David's throne at that time. Acts 4 was still "kingdom readiness."

The ultimate "proof" of dispensational study to me, aside from the command to divide the word, is that Jesus' very own disciples did not expect the crucifixion of Christ and were yet "not lost." Peter even rebuked the Lord concerning his crucifixion (Mark 8:32) and even after he rose disbelieved it (Luke 24:11) -- hardly someone who was "looking ahead" to Christ's sacrifice! (Looking ahead? He wouldn't even look back at it!)

The New Testament shows Christ's own disciples, over and over again, having the Gospel we believe "hidden" from them. Since they were "not lost" (John 17:12), and since Paul says anyone who has the Gospel hidden from them is lost (2Cor 4:3), we are either left with a glaring contradiction, or have to face the fact that there is some dividing to do.

Brandon, I see the phrase "rightly dividing" as describing the method used to understand the Scriptures, not that the Scriptures themselves are to be chopped into separate pieces and isolated.

Yes, it is obvious that portions of the Scriptures must be interpreted based on the time period of the passage. OT laws applied literally to the Jews of that day while painting the spiritual picture for us today. I cannot see, however, the many different "dispensations" that some of you see.

Let's pretend that you gave 100 believers who had never been exposed to any of the common interpretations the assignment of studying the Scriptures beginning to end until they were satisfied that they had gathered all that they could. Afterward you asked them to explain how the Scriptures fit together. I would venture to say that most if not all 100 would not see the dispensational prospective. At least I cannot imagine that they would see all of the little pieces that some of you folks see.

As for me, I am going to believe that the teachings of the NT are directly to be applied to my life, and that the principles of the OT laws are given for my learning. You folks can bypass Matthew, but I will rest in the confidence that it is written to me and for me.

More amplification on the "100 believer" experiment:
I believe that most would see a distinction between the nation of Israel and the NT church. That is so obvious. After all, there is the OT, then the NT! (duh :) ) What would not be obvious is the splitting of the NT into the however-many parts that some teach.

This is not entirely a pretended experiment. I have throughout my 56 years of life and 36 years of ministry been exposed to the teachings of the Scriptures. I have had the opportunity to speak with many pastors and many more dedicated believers. The only ones that I have met that had a dispensational view (other than just the OT/NT split) were those who heard it or read about it from someone else and not the Scriptures themselves. None that I have spoken to personally have been able to explain how one discerns where each of the lines are drawn. In fact, it has only been in the past year that I heard that Matthew was not written to me. ( I must stop here for a moment and say that I spend almost no time reading commentaries, and do not own a "study" Bible - other than SwordSearcher. ;) ) I would say that I do not fit into any of the labeled boxes that are so common today. My focus of study has been almost exclusively on the text issue. As for figuring out where all these parts are supposed to fit, I suppose that I will be behind the pack for a while. I just have far too many questions to be comfortable with any of the boxes yet. Thank the LORD, the future doesn't depend on me figuring it all out like the rest of you have. :D

Let me present you this idea and see if you can not look at the new testament a little different.

Up and until Jesus came everything pertaining to mankind was mankind's undoings.
I mean, there was absolutely nothing mankind could do to attain salvation.
Not even Moses, Abraham or any of the patriarchs.

Jesus was the end of that condition placed on mankind giving hope now to all mankind.

Grace was given, is given and will be given freely were as before the end, requirement was the necessity.
The law had to be complied with and we all know that was an impossibility.

The bible tells us it was for a reason. That being that only God gets the credit an no one else.

Now, coming to the NT, we find that grace is above all the gift of salvation and the law not a necessity.

That being the case, was rules are we going to be guided by then if grace is freely given without works?

Can we see Paul and His letters dictating certain behavioral patterns, things to watch out for and some observances to do?

We can say then that the new Testament is a workbook on working out the salvation that we already have been given it, yet not fully knowledgeable of all its benefits.

Behavioral problems are addressed plenty in the new testament because if we don't have any constitution to be governed by we all go amuck.

Take for instance a person who has found Christ and strives to learn all it can about Him, God and the bible.
Finds liberty in Jesus, and in maturity, desires, wants to live right and just with it fellow neighbors, being led in heart by God in him.

What rule, what regulation, what practice, what religious belief requires him to be free to love at will?

Folks, we are free to love unlimited, the soul of the people at our cost.
If we are free, should we have restrictions to require people by?

No! So, we work out those situations arising in modern day life and try to lead people to a better way by introducing God in Jesus.

If they know Jesus already we judge only their works, that is, in their works reflect not the love of Christ in them.

But we don't condemn for what Christ paid the price for; their souls.

That is my view as I now see it, where as before, I was bound by the belief that only I and some like I were the only ones going to make it because of this verse:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We all go through Jesus, for He paid the price for all souls, and there is none other name under heaven by which any soul can be saved.

We get tangled up in issues for a reason, and that to find the correct attitude to have.

If we find it, then we are free from it and are more the wiser as we gain wisdom in understanding and knowledge.

A good workbook contains many notes as remembrances of what and how we learned.

Peace>>>AJ

The one I am concerned about now is the one Paul says began with him:

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

This revelation, which Paul was given directly from God (not taught by men), began with Paul. It did not begin with John or Peter.

I am not a hyper-dispensationalist that disregards Scripture or slices it up into deli-thin slices of kosher meats. But I do recognize Paul's unique position as my apostle. Where you are rightly concerned about people losing blessings by disregarding truth in other portions of the Bible, I am equally concerned with the loss of blessing (and doctrine) that happens when people do not recognize the unique office of Paul, which no other man in the Bible ever had or will have.

Brother, Peter himself did not even see the crucifixion of Christ after it happened, even though it was foretold in the Old Testament and even though Jesus told Peter to his face what would happen. Peter couldn't understand it even after the Lord rose. And Peter couldn't get Paul's calling in Acts either. What 100 people can "agree" on does not concern me --what concerns me is what the Scripture says, and what concerns me now is what Paul said.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

When Paul says something different than John or Peter or even the Lord in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, it is not because there is something for me to "harmonize," it is because there is something for me to divide.

I don't know how you can do that. I know you believe you should, but these are not in harmony:

Matthew 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

You simply can not obey both of these simultaneously. One is for you now, one is not.

Well put, Diligent. That's very true. I totally agree with you.

Hey Cheete, I was wondering, are you a pre-millenialist, I kinda figure you are, but Im not sure.

Her Aj, I have something for you to think of.

Let's say for a minute that you have a son. (I don't know if you do or not, im using this to illustrate something to you.) Hes your only son and you love him with all your heart and you plan on giving him every thing that you have. Now let say your son joins the Marines, a war starts and he willingly goes to fight so that you don't have to. Now lets say while he is fighting the good fight a sniper shoots him and he dies. Now when you here of it while you are sad that he died but you are proud that he died for you, and your country.
Now lets say you are at the funeral and some jerk starts making fun of your son, he calls him baby killer, and all sorts of things that simply are not true.
Wouldn't that upset you, yea you'ld would probably give the guy a fat lip at the very least.
Now take that and compare that to a Holy and Rigtouess God, who gave his only begotten Son, allowed him to become sin and die for the sins of mankind. And then some one lives his whole life blaspheming God's son, Calling him a liar and ignoring his sacrfice, you gonna tell me that God will just let that perosn into heaven without regard for his son the Lord Jesus?
Thats impossible, that would say that the Lord Jesus really didn't need to die, cause he was just going to let unrepentant Murderers, Child Perverts into heaven. God Is just, he does not tolorate sin, the only reason that we can come to him his because of his son. Remember, God will destroy his enemys, Paul said Phili 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)Ps 2:2-5 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Aj, you can believe whatever you want to believe, if you want to believe that elephants can fly, thats up to you, its a free country.
If you wan't to believe that even the most worst unrepentant sinner will get into heaven while rejectin the only begotten son of God who gave his life for all man, you may its your life. It is not wise to be teaching others, especially lost people that they need not to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because hell is not real and God will let them into heaven regardless of them believeing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Hell is real, very real, and you can either let the Lord Jesus Christ pay for your sins on his cross, or you can spend eternity paying for your sins.

Brandon, exactly when do the teaching of Jesus in Matt 5-7 take effect then?

"Blessed are" is present tense, so was this only for the disciples who followed Jesus during His earthly ministry?

Are you saying that Jesus was NOT instructing us today to:

First, allow me to plead that I do not have all the answers. Only hyper-dispensationalists have it all worked out. ;)

It's the gospel of the kingdom, which Israel rejected but will eventually come to pass. The preaching of the Kingdom applies directly to the Kingdom. The world is going to see that Kingdom one day!

Firstly, I am not saying there is no application to us. Secondly, the phrase "blessed are" is also used in Luke 12:37-38 clearly in reference to something in the future.

Matthew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Yes, I am saying this does not apply to me. What Paul says applies to me:

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Obviously when we work we "take thought" for our livelihoods. Part of the reason I work is to provide substance for my family and myself. Clearly this is not in accordance with Mt 6:25 (unless you want to explain to me how I can work for a living without taking thought of it), but it is not sin, since Paul clearly commands that people who are unwilling to work should not be fed.

I agree there is a non-literal application of Matthew 6 for me, but "take no thought" is quite literal, isn't it?

Brandon, I thought you knew everything! :) :) :)

Seriously, Bro, Don't tell me that your spirit does not understand that "take no thought" when taken in context with the whole chapter means that we are not to be controlled by the worries of this world. I have lived my entire adult life serving Christ as my master, trusting in Him to supply my needs as He sees fit. I have claimed this chapter and have preached it for 30+ years. My life is evidence that God provides. "All these things" have been added to me and my family since my ministry began! Now I am told that this command and its related promise are not mine to claim?! Yes, I work. That is part of God's providence! I have done everything from flip burgers to land clearing. I have been in the computer industry from the time the the TRS-80 (Model 1!) was the PC. I now am a bookkeeper after I leave the church every day. In all this, I have never been without, and I have never feared that I would be without, because of Matthew 6. My kids never missed a meal. The 2 out of the 4 that wanted to attend college finished with no debt. DON'T TELL ME that only the Jews can claim this promise. AIN'T HAPPENIN'!!

I think that "D"ispensationalists have completely misunderstood what "d"ispensation is really all about. Hint: What is the root word for dispensation? - Dispense ... to disperse or to pass out. The "dispensation of grace" referred by Paul is the special grace given TO HIM to be the one responsible to carry out his ministry as the apostle to the Gentiles. It is not the signal of a new era within the timeline of God's plan.

Renee,

Acts 15 is the ordenances given by letter by Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles. these things are restated Old Testament commandmets for today. No one but the Holy Ghost can inforce them upon us. that is something the Jerusalem council knew. that is why they worded it so.

I would submit as much a s possible to Acts 15. for example a dinner held in honor of a superstar Actor, or Politician, nobel prize winner could be considered meats offered to Idols today, strangled animals blood remains in the meat of them, fornication is obvious Paul tells Christians constantly to abstain from that. also here in the Philippines they eat a dish of cooked pork blood (nasty stuff).

Jeff..falwn,

yes bro I am a pre-millenial return of Christ beleiver, and pre-tribulational gathering of the Body of christ to Himself in heaven. also I beleive the KJV is without errors, whole and complete word of God preserved for English speaking people of the last days

Josh, what was the purpose for Jesus’ sacrifice?

The purpose was to eliminate the law that kills to the grace that gives life.

Solely on that note is mankind saved.

Behavior is a question of blessings and cursing.

“Into heaven”… is a term to denote a person having access to the new life in Jesus as heaven on earth!
In other words, God (Heaven) backs His word in His promises to us (earthly) as in “heaven on earth”!


The soul of mankind is what Jesus came to save, not our works. Our works do absolutely nothing towards gaining salvation.

The good works belong only to God and it is by His good works (Jesus) that we have been granted (Gifted) salvation.

How could any of us taken any credit for it; by our good works?

That is absolutely correct, and that is why we pay as we go.

Quote:

Remember, God will destroy his enemies, Paul said Phili 3:18-19 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)Ps 2:2-5 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.>>>Josh

Yes, again, evil behavior is dealt with as we go and God may or may not cut us off early from the land of the living.

The power of the will of mankind is conquered by Jesus, therefore, it no longer can hold us separate from God.

We can, however hold ourselves separate from God by our own will.

Quote:

Aj, you can believe whatever you want to believe, if you want to believe that elephants can fly, that’s up to you, its a free country. If you wasn’t to believe that even the most worst unrepentant sinner will get into heaven while rejecting the only begotten son of God who gave his life for all man, you may its your life.>>>Josh

Are you forgetting what saves us? Is it our good works? Our evil works? Well, whose works than, are we saved by?
If by Christ’s works, then what have we to do with it? Absolutely nothing for it is a gift!

Now, if we don’t allow God in Jesus to reign in our hearts, we are doomed to suffer in the flesh.

Look at the works of God for our understanding.

Quote:

It is not wise to be teaching others, especially lost people that they need not to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because hell is not real and God will let them into heaven regardless of them believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Hell is real, very real, and you can either let the Lord Jesus Christ pay for your sins on his cross, or you can spend eternity paying for your sins.>>>Josh

Josh, I thank you for the admonition, and I fully expect it. I don’t know how else to state it without seeming to be more enlightened than some on the word of God, but I see things quite differently which give nothing but glory an honor to God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

God did work with a purpose and in which we interpret it without clear understanding, giving reason to “We know not what we do”.

But if we do it with hope of God in our hearts, then even if we don’t understand it, we are covered by the blood of Jesus.

Peace>>>AJ


__________________

I understand this is the proper way to apply it spiritually to me.

But as you pointed out, the early church in Jerusalem took this very literally (and properly so) -- so literally that Peter literally had no money (Acts 3:6). This is the same setup that had people dropping dead for lying, and people literally selling everything they had.

Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Do you practice this? They certainly didn't take those commands in anything less than a literal fashion. By what authority do you not practice this?

It is in fact wrong to do this now. The conduct of the church in early Acts is totally contrary to Paul's commands:

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

2 Corinthians 12:14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Unless we recognize that Paul was indeed teaching something new, there is no getting around these contradictions.

I am simply not satisfied with "spiritualizing away" entire passages of Scripture that are delivered in a very literal fashion.

That's not what Paul said!

Ephesians 3:1-5 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

(Wow, look at what Paul claimed: HE laid the foundation, which others build upon. Nobody else built the foundation! Did that foundation exist before Paul laid it? How could Paul claim to lay it if it did? And who dares claim to be laying new foundations after Paul, since Paul said we are to build on THAT foundation, not new ones (later verses in the passage)?)

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

(Wow, another claim -- in Paul FIRST. That's what he said. Not me!)

Again and again Paul calls his Gospel (and he claims to own it) a mystery and hidden and it was for him to reveal it.

Quote:

“But as you pointed out, the early church in Jerusalem took this very literally”…>>>Diligent

If we can understand the conditions that were in place we can understand much about the reality and the spirituality of many of the things that were said.

I mean, there was a radical change from a Jewish traditional belief and practices to that of a new belief and that new belief had no foundation for believers to stand on.

Consider the early church a baby spiritually, that must grow amidst the world of unbelief, and must struggle to find what it is that would stir them straight.

Paul, I believe gave advice based on what God had revealed to him as grounds by which this young spiritual baby could be protected by any wind of doctrine that might raise its head ad deceive.

Because the beginnings were but a small group and the conditions were of dangerous times, the group was to cling tighter as one unit.

Today, the same applies, but in many different groups, all with sincere intentions.

As for assumed contradictions, Paul was at odds to describe the depth of Gods revelations in simple terms to where these folks making a radical change could understand the new.

The church today, I mean the body of believers, not denominations, is way more advanced in knowledge and experience.

More mature in its understandings of Gods word.

Dispensation of Grace meant a new message to the new church as extrapolated in that verses you quoted: Ephesians 3:1-5.

I can tell you that when I was a child, I understood as a child, but now that I am older, I understand thing allot differently, to the glory of God.


Peace>>>AJ

Aloha Brother Tim,

Re: Your latest posts this thread > Doctrine > "Please explain dispensationalism to me"

I understand your “reluctance” to chop up the word of God – and possibly make it “of none effect”, but we are commanded to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This is not an “optional request”, it is a commandment given to Paul (by God) to pass on to Timothy (a man called of God to be an “evangelist”), who was called of God to teach and preach the scriptures. As such, all Christians (especially those men who are called of God to preach & teach the scriptures), are obligated to rightly divide “the word of truth”. That is, we have a duty and responsibility to God to obey Him, as to the manner and method we employ in the course of our studies.

I agree with your premise: that all (or almost all) of us who have embraced at least some form of “Dispensationalism” have learned about it from other men. And I, like you, am extremely wary of men's “traditions” and adding to, or subtracting from the word of God (As you should know by my posts on this Forum).

Having said that, I cannot just throw out “Dispensationalism” or “rightly dividing”, just because I learned about it from other men.

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

For example: In 1958, at the age of 18 (when I began reading the King James Bible for the first time in my life) after reading Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes - I went from being “agnostic” to believing that there was a God, and That God was THE GOD of the scriptures. However, I couldn't (or didn't) “figure out” how to get saved until the Lord brought some other Christian service men across my path (The “Navigators”), and they showed me why and how I must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ“ and His finished work on Calvary - that is: I must be born again” in order to obtain eternal life.

What would have happened if I had ignored or rejected their testimony – because it came from men? Of course there is no way of knowing what “might” of happened – but I hope you see my point. Although I am highly suspicious of men and the “traditions” of men, I do not reject all that other Christian men have to offer, because some of it may be “true”, since I know that God's method of spreading His word is through men (“faithful men” - called by Him).

There are so many different “Dispensational” teachings, methods, and “constructs” that I can't blame you for bring skeptical. On the other hand we are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth, so we must not throw out the baby with the bath water.

At this time I will not go into the different “Dispensations”, instead I will ask you to give me an explanation for some obvious differences (in instructions, gifts, & powers given to God's servants) in the scriptures. Confining my questions to the New Testament only:

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
13 And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where..

Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

1. Do we preach and teach these things as being applicable to the New Testament church for today?
2. Do we go out two by two?
3. Are we PROHIBITED from going to the “Gentiles” or the “Samaritans”?
4. Are we to go to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” ONLY?
5. Do we “preach” that the kingdom of heaven or of God is at hand?
6. Are we PROHIBITED from Providing neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in our purses?
7. Are we PROHIBITED from having scrip for our journey, or two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat?
8. Do we have “POWER to: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils today?
9. Do we HEAL everyone - everywhere we go today?
10. Do we have POWER & AUTHORITY over devils today?
11. Are devils SUBJECT unto us through the Lord Jesus Christ's Name today?
12. Are we to “salute no man by the way” today?
13. Do we have POWER to tread on serpents & scorpions without harm to us today?
14. Do we have all POWER over the enemy today?
15. Is it true that as we are going about preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” that: “nothing shall by any means hurt you”.- TODAY?

Do you see the problem? If you don't rightly divide the word of truth – you can not make “sense” of the scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All Scripture has three (3) Applications:

1. HISTORICAL
2. SPIRITUAL
3. DOCTRINAL

And it is up to us (those of us who study the scriptures) to rightly divide the word of God and make the “right” application - and that is where “rightly dividing” comes in (which includes “moderate” Dispensationalism).

To say, like some hyper-dispensationalists do, that a particular scripture is not FOR us is an error. For ALL scripture is for us; its ALL profitable; its ALL good for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction – its just not ALL directed AT us; its not ALL “applicable” TO us, as the forgoing verses clearly demonstrate.

The following verses demonstrate even further, that circumstances change – that God requires different responses from us dependent upon His will for His people at different times, or how else can you explain the instructions of the Lord to His disciples late in His ministry, when He was ready to be offered up for the sins of the world?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Do you notice that these instructions are just exactly the OPPOSITE from those He gave near the beginning of His ministry? Why the difference? What had changed?

Can you not see that all of these instructions (both at the beginning and at the end of the Lord's ministry) were specific to the 12 Apostles and then the 70 Disciples (Historically); and that those instructions were applicable only to them at that specific time (Doctrinally)? If they weren't - why aren't any of the signs and miracles following those of us who are preaching the "gospel" today? (That's one of the "problems" that Charismatics have today)

This is just a microcosm of the challenges that “rightly dividing the word of truth” present, but a challenge we are supposed to meet by following the Lord's instructions given in His Holy Scriptures, as to "how" we are to study His Holy word.

In trying to rightly divide the word of God, we could do this kind of exegesis throughout the entire New Testament. It's hard work and some of it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to determine. That is why - if God doesn't show me something, I often just "let it go", rather than make a verse (or verses) fit some preconceived idea I may have about some doctrine. :confused:

George, well written!

I believe that what is key in understanding what Jesus said prior to and after the cross is because nothing had been fulfilled.

After the fulfilment of Prophecy by Jesus, Mankind is liberated from all things as were before, that is, if one would find God in Jesus and latch on to Him.

You and I and many of us are privileged to know Jesus as Savior, but there are those out there in the world who have religion, but don't know Jesus as Savior.

For them Christ died for, and the onus is on us to declare Gods righteousness in Jesus to as many as we can.

To rightly divide the word is to understand Gods love for all mankind, and that we having been given the responsibility to declare the love of God to them in word and action.

What we have become instead is segregationists, because we divide the word to mean that only under certain circumstances God will honor them.

That being the case, we all need some maturing.

Peace>>>AJ

George, I will attempt to answer your questions, however, I am preparing for VBS this next week and have much to do. It may take some time to respond completely.

To begin:
As with all Scripture, these verses and the events surrounding them must be taken in context. Of course, instructions given under specific circumstances must not be stretched beyond their boundaries. I am not in any way saying that there are not time periods in the Scriptures where God operated in different ways to accomplish His purposes. More later on this point.

I think that this is one of the most common methods for Baptist church visitation programs today. Maybe it is different over there in your isolated "paradise". :)

Must go.
Your brother,
Tim Keyes