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Beth	03-26-2008 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2335)

The reason I believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is for today has to do with the following verses:

I'm just curious.... which foreign language do you speak miraculously without having been taught that foreign language?

atlas

03-26-2008 02:58 PM

Beth,

Quote:

I'm just curious.... which foreign language do you speak miraculously without having been taught that foreign language?

That is such a good question my friend. Just think they do not have to learn a foreign language like the Baptist because they have " the gift. "

:D

Atlas

George

03-26-2008 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2335)

Hey George, it is a pleasure to discuss with you. One of my best friends is like you in that regard. Iron sharpens iron. There's always built-in irritations with any disagreement, however, when incendiary remarks are eliminated, that makes for a more challenging discussion.

That said,

I believe the question you are asking me has to do with context of who is being addressed and who can apply a particular teaching today (sorry for the sloppy paraphrase).

The reason I believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is for today has to do with the following verses:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

And again, thank you for being civil. On another thread, I was told I don't know Jesus because I didn't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of pre-destination. That's when it's time to end the discussion.

Please check my posts to Connie on her question: "The Gifts of the Holy Spirit for today?"

To answer your 3 points - your quote: The reason I believe the "gift of the Holy Ghost" with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is for today has to do with the following verses:

#1. {Acts 2:39} The "tongues" that were spoken were languages known by the Jews and Proselyte Jews that were spread throughout the Roman Empire - not an "unknown" tongue. The "promise" is the "gift" of the Holy Spirit (not the tongues) of which the "tongues" were a "sign" to the Jews of the veracity of the "gift".

#2. {Acts 10:45} The purpose of the "tongues" here (spoken by Gentiles) was to convince the Jews (Peter & his Jewish brethren) that "on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." Since "the Jews require a sign" [1Corinthians 1:22] and since "tongues are for a sign" [1Corinthians 14:22], the fact that the Gentiles also spoke in tongues convinced Peter and his fellow Jews that the Gentiles had also received the "gift" of the Holy Ghost.

#3.{Galatians 3:7-9} The fact that we have "faith" in common with Abraham doesn't mean Christians have inherited all of the Jewish covenants having to do with the land; the Kingdom; or the many promises that God made to the nation of Israel.

We are "the children of Abraham" through his seed - the Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I fail to see where Galatians has any bearing or relation to "tongues", unless the claim is made that all of the promises to Abraham and to his seeds are ours - which Galatians 3:16 dispels at once, since the promise was to Christ and through Christ only, NOT to the nation of Israel.

When the scriptures proclaim: "In thee shall all nations be blessed."; that is a reference again to the Lord Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death and shed blood that made it possible for those of us who aren't Jews to become partakers of the same blessing [Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:]

Revangelist

03-28-2008 02:09 PM

Beth and Atlas, Here's your answer....

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Remember, in Acts 2, when they sopke in tongues the first time, they were in a prayer meeting. Acts 2:5 has them exited the upper room, and outside.

Here is another answer...

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This is talking about praying in tongues, in which the particular language isn't specified.

Disclaimer: This in no wise validates everyone who speaks in tongues. There are many sources of tongues-speaking. I've shown Biblical tongues as:

1. Praying in the Spirit (1st Corinthians 14:2)
2. Speaking in an unlearned human lnaguage (Acts 2:8)
3. Tongues and interpretation in a church service. (1st Corinthians 14:5)

Revangelist

03-28-2008 02:12 PM

Some are suggesting tongues has been takin away. Another Scriptural reason I don't believe any of the gifts of the Spirit are removed but are still for today:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Beth	03-28-2008 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2427)

Are you saying that when you speak in tongues you are simply repeating babblings? this is easy to do. What is miraculous, is to speak in a known foreign language without having been taught that foreign language, which was the case on the day of Pentecost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Way of Life Encyclopedia

ERROR # 4: TONGUES IS A HEAVENLY PRAYER LANGUAGE.

When it is noted by outsiders that the modern tongues spoken commonly in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles is not a known earthly language, it is replied that they are speaking in a heavenly prayer language.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The tongues spoken in the early churches were real earthly languages (Act 2:6-10). According to 1Cor 14:2, tongues speaking was the giving forth of mysteries, which refers to revelation. The term "mysteries" in the N.T. refers to things that were hidden in O.T. times but are now brought to light (Rom 16:25-26; 1Cor 2:7, 1 Cor 2:10; Eph 3:3-5; Col 1:26). This is what we see on the day of Pentecost. Those that heard the disciples speak in tongues on that day said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (Act 2:11). Biblical tongues were languages, not some sort of unintelligible mutters.

Beth	03-28-2008 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2428)

Here's some commentary on Rom 11:29.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Ro 11:29

For the gifts and calling of God,… By "gifts" are meant, not the gifts of nature and providence, as life, health, strength, riches, and honour, which God sometimes gives, and repents of, and takes away; as he repented that he had made man upon earth, and Saul king of Israel; which must be understood by an "anthropopathy", after the manner of men, and that not of a change of the counsel of his mind, but of the course of his providence: nor do gifts here design external gifts of grace, or such gifts of the Spirit, which qualify men for ministerial work, for public service in the church; for these may be taken away, as the "parable" of the "talents" shows, Mat 25:29; see 1Cor 13:8; but the special and spiritual gifts of God's free grace, which relate to the spiritual and eternal welfare of the souls of men, even that, grace which was given to God's elect in Christ before the world was, and all those spiritual blessings wherewith they were then blessed in him:

these are without repentance; that is, they are immutable and unalterable; God never revokes them, or calls them in again, or takes them away from the persons to whom he has made such a previous donation: the reasons are, because that his love from whence they spring is always the same; it admits of no distinction, nor of any degrees, nor of any alteration; and electing grace, according to which these gifts are bestowed, stands sure and immovable; not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign will of God, and always has its sure and certain effect; and the covenant of grace, in which they are secured, remains firm and inviolable; and indeed, these gifts are no other than the promises of it, which are all yea and amen in Christ, and the blessings of it, which are the sure mercies of David. Whatever God purposes, or promises to give, or really does give to his people, whether into the hands of Christ for them, or into their own, he never repents of or reverses.

Revangelist

03-28-2008 05:15 PM

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Beth, you were correct about the "miraculousness" of speaking in a language you haven't learned to someone who understands it. That does go on, even today (albeit by testimony since I wasn't present to witness it). But the other part you refer to as babblings, is where Paul says some unknown tongues done in prayer are speaking directly to God and his understanding is unfruitful. So, I guess if someone (besides God) is listening in, it will sound like babblings.

Pastor Mikie

03-28-2008 05:25 PM

Revangelist, I agree. If someone disagrees, that is understandable. What I would like to point out is someone who believes "tongues isn't for today" will find it very difficult, if not impossible, to "convert" a Pentecostal from their position. Speaking for myself, and probably many other Pentecostals: I've received something special in the way of speaking in tongues. I spend time everyday in prayer. Some of that time, I pray in an unknown tongue and I'm speaking to God and not to anyone else. I don't make a habit of doing this in front of other people. As a matter of fact, I avoid it. These are precious times in prayer.

You can disagree with that all you like to. But, you won't be able to change my mind, any more than you can talk me out of my marriage. It is something I've experienced, and checked-out with the Scriptures and found them valid. We all have experiences in life. We all have feelings. For me personally, I try not to operate by feelings, and I don't make Biblical decisions based on experiences. But my experience does add-up Biblically. Also, as for quoting a commentary, I have to admit I don't use or read commentaries very much. When they are quoted on this forum, I don't read them at all. No offense.

Revangelist

03-28-2008 05:30 PM

Amen, Revangelist. Ditto with me.

Beth	03-28-2008 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 2451)

Also, as for quoting a commentary, I have to admit I don't use or read commentaries very much. When they are quoted on this forum, I don't read them at all. No offense.

I have learned much from reading commentaries from authors I have found Biblically sound. I only quote those that back up their comments with scripture.

You may be doing yourself a dis-service by keeping to that strict rule of not reading commentaries.

I have found that there are commentators that have studied the Bible as a whole much more extensively than I have and I can learn from them. But I can see why you would not want to read commentaries re: tongues.

Here's a great example of a commentary you most likely would not appreciate even though it has scripture reference to back up every point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Way of Life Encyclopedia

TONGUES SPEAKING
The modern Pentecostal movement, from its inception at the turn of the century, has emphasized the belief that all of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the N.T. are to be exercised today. One of the gifts frequently exalted in the Pentecostal movement is the gift of tongues. In fact, the Pentecostal movement is often called "the tongues movement" because of this emphasis. There are five common errors promoted by the Pentecostal movement pertaining to tongues. Not all Pentecostal churches promote all of these errors, but these are very commonly held.

ERROR # 1: TONGUES SPEAKING IS A PRIMARY EVIDENCE OF HOLY SPIRIT FILLING.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

(1) In the book of Acts there are many mentions of Christians being filled with the Spirit, but only one time is tongues speaking mentioned. It is ridiculous, then, to try to make tongues speaking the primary evidence of Holy Spirit filling. A survey of Acts shows the following evidences present when believers were filled with the Spirit: Preaching in foreign languages (Ac 2:4-11). Witnessing of Christ with boldness (Ac 4:8-12,31-33). Willingness to serve God's people (Ac 6:3-5). Christ-like attitude toward's one's enemies (Ac 7:55-60). Readiness to obey God (Ac 9:17-20). Winning men to Christ (Ac 11:24). Resisting false teachers (Ac 13:8-10). Joy in the Lord (Ac 13:52). (2) The evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 5-6 does not mention tongues at all. The marks of Spirit filling are said to be spiritual relationships (Eph 5:19,21-33; 6:1-9), worship (Eph 5:19), resisting Satan (Eph 6:11-18), and an effective prayer life (Eph 5:18-20). To connect spiritual gifts with Spirit filling is unscriptural. (3) 1Co 12:13 says all have been baptized by the Holy Spirit but the same chapter says not all speak in tongues (1Co 12:30).

ERROR # 2: TONGUES SPEAKING IS FOR EVERY CHRISTIAN.

In most Pentecostal groups every Christian is encouraged to speak in tongues. The pressure to do this varies from group to group, but tongues speaking is definitely upheld as something desirable and important for the Christian life.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The N.T. says that different gifts are given to different Christians, and no one gift is given to every believer. Paul plainly taught that not every Christian spoke in tongues even in the first century (1Co 12:4,7-12,28-30).

ERROR # 3: TONGUES SHOULD BE SOUGHT BY THE CHRISTIAN.

Though there are exceptions, most Pentecostal churches teach that the Christian should seek to speak in tongues. In fact, the pressure to do so can be intense. Countless books have been written purporting to teach people how to speak in tongues.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

(1) Paul told the Corinthian believers that they should covet the "best gifts" (1Co 12:31). He listed the gifts in order of importance in verses 28-30 and tongues was at the bottom! It is strange that a gift which the Apostles considered the lest important has become so exalted in the modern Pentecostal movement. (2) The disciples did not seek to speak in tongues. In every instance in which Christians spoke in tongues in the N.T. the tongues were sovereignly given. In no instance were the recipients trying to speak in tongues. (3) The Bible never tells the Christian to seek to speak in tongues. Not once is there such instruction given by the Apostles. (4) There is no instruction in the Bible about HOW to speak in tongues. If tongues speaking was important for the Christian life and if it was a good thing for every Christian to speak in tongues, surely God would have plainly instructed us in how to do such a thing! (5) The Pentecostal/Charismatic method of speaking in tongues is unscriptural and dangerous. When a person accepts the idea that tongues speaking is a needed and helpful thing for the spiritual life, he then asks how tongues can be received. The Pentecostal and Charismatic preacher instructs such a one simply to open his mouth and start muttering words but without using normal language. God is supposed to take control of the tongue. There is not a hint of such a practice in the N.T. The Bible warns Christians that there are deceiving spirits which attempt to influence Christians and that can appear as angels of light and ministers of God (2Co 11:13-15; Mt 24:24). Paul warned the Corinthians that they were in danger of receiving false spirits because of their carnal, undiscerning condition (2Co 11:3-4). The Christian cannot be possessed by evil spirits, but we can certainly be influenced by them. Thus the Bible warns us to be sober and vigilant (1Pe 4:7; 5:8).

ERROR # 4: TONGUES IS A HEAVENLY PRAYER LANGUAGE.

When it is noted by outsiders that the modern tongues spoken commonly in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles is not a known earthly language, it is replied that they are speaking in a heavenly prayer language.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The tongues spoken in the early churches were real earthly languages (Ac 2:6-10). According to 1Co 14:2, tongues speaking was the giving forth of mysteries, which refers to revelation. The term "mysteries" in the N.T. refers to things that were hidden in O.T. times but are now brought to light (Ro 16:25-26; 1Co 2:7,10; Eph 3:3-5; Col 1:26). This is what we see on the day of Pentecost. Those that heard the disciples speak in tongues on that day said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (Ac 2:11). Biblical tongues were languages, not some sort of unintelligible mutters.

ERROR # 5: TONGUES IS FOR PERSONAL EDIFICATION.

Tongues speaking in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is said to be something the Christian can do privately to edify himself.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

God plainly tells us the purpose for tongues. It was to give a sign to the nation Israel regarding the fact that God was doing this new thing in starting the church (1Co 14:20-22). Paul tells us that tongues was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa 28:11-12.

In conclusion, the following are the reasons why I know that modern tongues are not biblical tongues:

1. Biblical tongues were a sign to Israel regarding the founding of the church and ceased when the foundation of the church was completed (1Co 13:8-9; 14:20-22; Eph 2:20).

2. Biblical tongues were bound by apostolic direction (no women speaking, by course, interpretation, no confusion, etc.) (1Co 14:1-40). The practice of "tongues" in modern times is not restrained in this way.

3. Biblical tongues were real earthly languages (Ac 2:6-10).

4. Biblical tongues were revelatory messages (1Co 14:2; 2:7,10; Eph 3:3-5).

5. Biblical tongues were not sought but were sovereignly given by God (1Co 12:11).

6. Biblical tongues were the least important spiritual gift (1Co 12:28-30).

7. Biblical tongues were not spoken by all Christians (1Co 12:30).

8. Biblical tongues were not received in a passive state (1Pe 5:8).

Jeff	03-28-2008 08:07 PM

You've about persuaded me. Not about speaking in tongues, but to purchase The Way of Life Encyclopedia :).

Having been involved in Pentecostalism I can testify to so much of what the encyclopedia says about tongues speaking.

Revangelist

03-29-2008 07:25 AM

The Bible sure sheds a lot of light on the commentaries. A dictionary (1828 Websters for example) is something I find useful. I've studied the Bible since 1973 and found many commentaries kind of dry reading. I have used them. Matthew Henry is my favourite. Others I have read tried to change the meaning of what my Bible said by using the "original word" Bible correcting technique which turns me completely off.

Revangelist

03-29-2008 07:27 AM

Beth, please don't take this as a criticism off how you do your personal Bible studies. I'm only speaking for myself.

Pastor Mikie

03-29-2008 07:39 AM

Except for the sarcasm, I agree with Revangelist. I might also add that it is futile to continue to try and persuade us to believe as you do. I don't see it happening. Keep this in mind, too: Pentecostals aren't your enemies. We are on your side -

Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Beth	03-29-2008 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 2471)

I've never considered you an enemy, simply pointing out Biblical truth. You have made your mind up and won't even hear the word of God on this issue. That's up to you, but that won't stop me from defending the truth of God's Word.

Beth	03-29-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 2460)

You will love the Way of Life Encyclopedia! It goes great with SwordSearcher.

I have found that in almost every topic that I'm confused on I can find the answer with this software. The Way of Life Encyclopedia will take a topic and then point out everywhere through out the Bible where this topic is mentioned. It's a great way to learn by taking the Bible as a whole.

Revangelist

03-29-2008 05:32 PM

Beth, I can say ditto to you, since I believe I'm pointing out Biblical truth. We just happen to disagree on interpreting it. I will continue to point out error. I'm hearing (and reading) God's Word and believe I'm believing correctly.

Beth	03-31-2008 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 2451)

You can disagree with that all you like to. But, you won't be able to change my mind, any more than you can talk me out of my marriage. It is something I've experienced, and checked-out with the Scriptures and found them valid. We all have experiences in life. We all have feelings. For me personally, I try not to operate by feelings, and I don't make Biblical decisions based on experiences. But my experience does add-up Biblically. Also, as for quoting a commentary, I have to admit I don't use or read commentaries very much. When they are quoted on this forum, I don't read them at all. No offense.

Please take this in Christian love.

I don't doubt at all that you have had this experience. You say you have compared this experience to the Bible, although, what you explain as your tongues experience does not compare to the Biblical examples. The Bible clearly explains that people were able to understand what others that spoke different languages were saying in their own tongue. No where in scripture does it describe the tongues we hear today or the tongues you have explained as your experience. The tongues you speak of are easy to imitate and from what I hear from many that have come out of the Pentecostal movement, there is much pressure to imitate these babblings. It is nonsense when heard by others. Our God is not a God of confusion.

If I heard Biblical tongues today, I would hear a language that I didn't understand, (an unknown language) but there would be someone there that would be able to interpret what the person was saying. I would not hear strange babblings repeated over and over again, I would recognize it as a foreign language although not understand what the person was saying. Or I would hear someone that spoke a different language, speak in my language. I believe as the Bible says, that this was a sign for the Jews as prophesied in Isaiah and this miraculous gift is no longer available. We certainly don't see this miraculous gift today. What we see is a corrupted version of the gift.

So yes, we all have experiences. We must try the spirit of these experiences.

We are cautioned against seducing spirits. What do these Pentecostal teachers tell us about tongues. Some say it is a special gift for special Christians, (extreme piety). Some say only those with the gift have received a special (second) blessing. Isn't this teaching focused more on the individual and their specialness then for the furthering of the gospel of Christ and the edification in God's Word? Try, try, try the spirits.

Quote:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 02:04 PM

Acts 2:1 ¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

They were in the upper room in a prayer meeting and spoke in tongues with out interpretation.

Acts 2:5 ¶And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Now, they are outdoors, out of the upper room and Jews from other nations heard in their own language.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is speaking to God directly.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 ¶What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Again Paul is praying and singing in tongues. His understanding is unfruitful. Only God understood him.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 02:10 PM

Also, I'm not validating what other Pentecostals do. Good chance most of it is "babbling", that's between them and God. However, I'm only showing the validity of it in the Scriptures.

As I explained before, I don't speak in tongues for anyone else to hear me, except there be an interpretor. And that has only happened to me a few times.

Pastor Mikie

03-31-2008 02:17 PM

I'm sorry to say that many of the people who speak in tongues do so to show they are spiritual. Others because of peer-pressure. But it doesn't mean tongues isn't legitimate Biblically.

The same can be said for some that go to church. They go to church thinking they're Christians, others because anybody who is somebody goes to church. I had a number of people who sat through salvation messages who didn't respond week after week. They were religious, and that was good enough for them. The same with the "Pentecostal distinctive". Even that has become a religious thing to some folks.

Beth	03-31-2008 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2686)

[I][COLOR="Indigo"]Acts 2:1 ¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

and you say:
They were in the upper room in a prayer meeting and spoke in tongues with out interpretation.

did you purposely leave out the word other. see bold red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2686)

Acts 2:5 ¶And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Now, they are outdoors, out of the upper room and Jews from other nations heard in their own language.

I'm confused by your point. Are you saying there are two different types of tongues being spoken of in Acts 2. A different type in the upper room and another type in the outdoors? I still don't see a Biblical example of the modern day tongues in the Pentecostal movement.

It almost looks as though now you two are saying that most of the tongues movement is corrupt, except for the tongues that you two participate in?? I'm just getting more confused by your "special" gift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2686)

[COLOR="Navy"]1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is speaking to God directly.

Are you saying that unless we speak in this unknown prayer language we are not speaking directly to God. Again, I'm getting more confused. God's Word is clear!! Praise the Lord.

Biblical tongues were revelatory messages

Quote:

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Quote:

Ephesians 3:3-5 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Beth	03-31-2008 03:29 PM

The purpose of tongues in the Bible

Is the purpose for personal edification?? NO

God plainly tells us the purpose for tongues. It was to give a sign to the nation Israel regarding the fact that God was doing this new thing in starting the church. Paul tells us that tongues was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa 28:11-12.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 14:20-22 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Quote:

Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

jerry

03-31-2008 04:11 PM

In Acts 2, the passage does not state that they were in the upper room - that was chapter one, ten days before. Now in chapter 2, the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples and they spoke in tongues to those around them. It is pretty clear they were speaking other languages - and the context showed this was immediately afterwards - not that they spoke in tongues among themselves for a bit, then went out into the streets.

1 Corinthians 14 is also rebuking a supposed private prayer language. It is in the context of using our gifts to edify the church - not ourselves.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 04:14 PM

Beth, I looked back at my post and the word "other" was there. I cut and pasted it right out of my Bible software.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 04:17 PM

The questions you are asking appear to be rhetorical. If I answer, you will come back with more and more....

I'm not interested in "making you" change your mind. Any more answers along this line would be an exercise in futility. So why should I bother?

Pastor Mikie

03-31-2008 04:20 PM

I'm sorry if you took some of my statements to mean somehow I was better than other Pentecostals. I was merely acknowledging that I understand there are problems in the Pentecostal Churches, not make myself sound better than they. There are lots of problems in lots of church regardless of there affiliation.

Beth	03-31-2008 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2697)

Beth, I looked back at my post and the word "other" was there. I cut and pasted it right out of my Bible software.

look at post 60.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2686)

[I][COLOR="Indigo"]Acts 2:1 ¶And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

They were in the upper room in a prayer meeting and spoke in tongues with out interpretation.

Yes, other is in the scripture you cut and pasted. look at the sentence right after the scripture, your paraphrase.

Scripture = and began to speak with other tongues.

Revangelist = and spoke in tongues and you added without interpretation???

Beth	03-31-2008 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 2699)

This is true that there are lots of problems in lots of churches regardless of their affiliation. This is why we must always try the spirit. We must compare everything to scripture to make sure it is true and from God.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 05:31 PM

I guess I did leave the word "other" out. If I left it out of the Scripture Quotation, then that would be wrong of me to do. If I leave it out of my explanation, I guess I assume the word "other" was implied. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 05:44 PM

I know pastor Mikie is Pentecostal, but are there any others on this forum/thread?

I get the distinct feeling that because most of you here on this thread are not Pentecostals, you WILL NOT accept any explanation I give. Am I correct? I have really tried my best to be precise. Am I also correct that you non-Pentecostals are very much bothered by my beliefs? You are insisting we Pentecostals are unscriptural in our beliefs, and feel this great need to "correct" our error.

There a great many Scripturally "savvy" Pentecostals around, and many who are not (that's true with Baptists and other denominations). There are many who love the Word of God as much as any of you do (I'm one of them). There are also many Pentecostals who very much love their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ (and I'm one of them, also). I say you non-Pentecostals are in error. You say we Pentecostals are in error. For the record, when someone disagrees with me on my interpretations, even though I believe I'm right, I would never accuse you of "not knowing the Bible" with the exception of outright opinion and no Scriptural proof. Please afford me the same courtesy. That makes for better discussion.

Beth	03-31-2008 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2705)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you implied other.

I'm sure you can see how saying "spoke in tongues" is more in line with the modern tongues movement, but to say as scripture does, "began to speak with other tongues," is clearly talking about other languages, especially as it is explained as such further along in the chapter.

We need to be careful to not change scripture to make it line up better with our own presuppositions.

Beth	03-31-2008 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revangelist (Post 2706)

I will only except a Biblical answer. No one has been able to give me a Biblical example of what is going on in the modern tongues/Pentecostal movement. You will never be able to convince me by your own personal experience.

I'm not bothered by you personally. Although, you are right, I am bothered by the error that is spread, for more to be deceived.

I do pray that you will take heed to the clear and plain scripture given to you. This is dishonoring to God to ignore His Word when it doesn't line up to your own personal view. To ignore plain scripture is not an interpretation problem, it's a disobedience problem.

I also don't doubt your salvation or your love of Jesus. Although, I can't know for sure either way. If you are saved, you must have been misled by a false teacher, maybe a few false teachers. We are warned, there are many among us.

I have also held to false teachings before and have been corrected by dear brothers and sisters in Christ. I am forever grateful for this Biblical correction. I have learned much from sound Biblical correction. I'm sure I will continue to have those around me correct me. I welcome it, as long as the case is made scripturally.

Quote:

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Quote:

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Revangelist

03-31-2008 09:05 PM

This is my objection. Quote: I do pray that you will take heed to the clear and plain scripture given to you. This is dishonoring to God to ignore His Word when it doesn't line up to your own personal view. To ignore plain scripture is not an interpretation problem, it's a disobedience problem.

You haven't proven to me it is an error other than your say-so. I believe the Scriptures you present are misapplied. That, in my opinion, could be dishonoring to God. However, there is grace for errors from a sincere God-seeker.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

I don't know what else to say to you. Your mind is made up and you want to believe as you do and believe you have Scriptural evidence. All I can say is:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Ignorance isn't a sin because:

Romans 14:5...Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I understand this verse talks about one day above another, but it is also generally speaking about any time there is a dispute about meaning.

Grace and peace to you, sister.

Renee

04-01-2008 12:02 AM

Yes Revangelist,

There are those that perish, because they have not accepted the Gift of eternal life that Christ paid for with His death, burial and ressurection.

Connie

04-01-2008 02:12 AM

Just for the record, I think that this question can't be resolved Biblically, I think it can only be resolved by a true testing of the spirits of the operations of the gifts today, and I don't see that happening. Specific instances of tongues should be presented and considered, as many as possible, such as by recording every instance in a church, recording the interpretations if there are any, also investigating specific prophecies, in other words expose the whole range of the phenomena that are today called the gifts of the Spirit.

We know the gifts were in operation in the apostolic church, and it's possible there was a kind of language that was not a human language that was a speaking to God in private. I don't think the Bible is clear on this point one way or the other. If it is "unknown" and yet it "edifies" oneself that seems to be a possible interpretation.

The real question that concerns us today isn't so much what powers they had in that generation, but whether or not the sign gifts were only meant for them, and possibly also for the generation of the last days as well, but not for the church in the intervening centuries. There is good reason to think this is the case from the historical fact that the gifts did in fact stop, and did not reoccur except in isolated instances until the 20th century. There is also reason to think that most, possibly all, of the examples in this last century were demonically inspired. There's been plenty of evidence of that, from the unholy environments often created where the sign gifts are in operation to the testimony of people involved in the movement that a great proportion of the phenomena are demonic.

When I began to be uneasy about my own experiences in the charismatic movement and prayed for light, God brought all kinds of things to my attention and my remembrance that helped me to begin to recognize just how much of it was not of Him, violations of scripture in supposed prophetic messages for instance. Even after that I didn't have a solid conviction that all the gifts were not of Him -- that all tongues-speakers, all prophets, all healers for instance are deceived -- until recently, and now I'm just about totally convinced, and in any case very clear that my own supposed gift of tongues is not of Him and I want to be rid of it. The way I finally arrived at this conclusion was by learning more about the history of the movement and reading particular studies of it, such as David Cloud's. To my mind the burden of proof is now on the believers to show that their tongues, their prophecies by "prophets", their healings by supposed "healers," are authentic.

I don't doubt that there are many fine godly charismatics and pentecostals who sincerely believe in the gifts for today based on their understanding of the Bible. But simply quoting the Bible doesn't resolve this question, as is shown on this thread. Until the practitioners are willing to expose all the supposed gifts to careful scrutiny and able to show that the gifts are genuine, my own conclusion is that they are deceived -- the way Catholics are sincere but deceived, and so on.

Pastor Mikie

04-01-2008 08:24 AM

I'm willing to be scrutinized, and so is my wife. I still remember the first time she openly moved in the Gifts. We were doing a concert in a medium-sized church. Towards the end, my wife asked me if she could say something. I obliged. She looked towards the back of the sanctuary and said that someone needed healing from heart problems. A woman responded and affirmed she had a heart condition, but her symptoms had just gone away. Of course I was nervous, because the Bible makes it clear about 100% accuracy. The pastor, after the service, confirmed what had taken place.

I told my wife that the Holy Ghost is the one who is in charge of the gifts. Also, don't use this manifestation as a "calling card". Whenever my wife has operated in this fashion, she has never been wrong. She also doesn't "conjure-up" a manifestation either. This manifestation hasn't happened very often with her.

The dangers facing the church are ownership of the 1st Corinthians 12 gifts of the Holy Ghost. They aren't ours to keep. They are to profit withal, not someone to get puffed-up over.

Beth	04-01-2008 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connie (Post 2718)

The only way for a true testing of the spirits is to compare to scripture.

Quote:

2 Timothy 3:13-17 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Beth	04-01-2008 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pastor Mikie (Post 2724)

In testing that spirit, I would wonder... since women are to be silent in Church.

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