I just showed you several Bible passages that taught that faith comes before regeneration - yet, you argue based on your reasoning and no Bible to back it up. Since when is THAT how we are supposed to rightly divide the Bible?

You just showed me your lack of understanding the bible, a dead man cant have faith..lol

I just did a quick search of the Gospels. I can't find one verse where Jesus says, "Thy wholeness has given thee faith."

Instead I find where He says, "Thy faith has made thee whole" and similar. How can that be?

As I have said faith is a Gift of God in order for the elect to realize their salvation..

Its a fruit of the spirit..

God should get all the glory for salvation, quit giving man glory..

Faith comes with salvation its all a gift of God eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You dont even understand the most basics of bible truth lol

So regeneration comes before salvation?

"Faith cometh by hearing," therefore hearing must cause regeneration. But wait, how can a dead man hear? So regeneration must come before hearing.

Of course, salvation by grace is the gift of God, but you have faith to accept it. Faith is not a work to boast of. It's pretty clear to me. lol

Would you not acknowledge there are different qualities and quantities of faith, love, joy, etc.? Would you claim that no unsaved person has ever experienced a type of love, joy, peace, etc.?

You seem to take great pride in your wisdom, but do you really understand the basics yourself?

Spot on, Debau!

Imagine the conversation as a heroin addict is brought to salvation after professing faith in Christ:

Loss of salvation person..." Congratulations brother, your sins are forgiven and you are on your way to heaven!!!"

Heroin addict...." I am so happy! thank God for saving me!"

LOSP ....." Dont get too comfortable, if you ever even think about taking another hit of heroin, its back to the lake of fire for you!!!"

Heroin addict..."What? but didnt you just say that Jesus died so that I didnt have to?, and his resurrection proved that he had the power over life and death?

LOSP ..." Yes, but that only works for the sins you committed in the past...anything bad that you do from now on condems you to hell again"

Heroin addict..."But i'm an ADDICT, I cant just stop...I'm thinking about heroin right now!! I cant do this by myself!!!"

LOSP...." Too bad!! you have to do your part as well, salvation isn't a free gift you know!"

Heroin addict...:eek:


fundy

By the way Beloved57, I take the "lol" you use to sign off with to mean "lots of love." I hope that's what it means as you have me doing it too now. lol

Great :). I was wondering why they could come up with all these examples of pastors and people doing great works for the Lord who turn into wiccans or whatever when I can't think of any extreme examples like that. Maybe they do just give up because they recognize the futility.

lol (lots of love)

beloved57,

Jeff know how to get saved. You seem to have a problem knowing how you stay saved. Jeff is not the one with the problem you are my fried. We are not opposed to you friend. We are trying to help you. I hope you know that.

Atlas

Well, at least you guys are turning on each other. I guess it's a good thing you believe in eternal security.

There are a good number of folks on this thread who seem to be contentious for the faith rather than contending for the faith.

How can some of you say you believe in eternal security when if someone disagrees with you, you question their salvation, whether they are submitting to God, they don't know the Bible? The accusations are flying "off the handle".

Trust me, you need the help lol..Believe thou on the True christ, the one who saved his people with a eternal salvation..

The bible no where talks about getting saved..A person is saved by Gods electing grace and christ redemptive love..its a gift to a chosen people...just cant go get saved..

So brothers you mean even if you die in sin, God will take you to heaven
as long as you have confessed Jesus?

Jesus is a saviour he bore the consequences of his people sin..

beloved57...

You aren't talking about eternal security, you are talking about pre-destination. The pre-destination in the Bible has to do with what's pre-destined for Christians as a result of them accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Your doctrine of pre-destination is self-refuting and if you feel that way, that's really too bad. To think God created some to be saved and other to be damned isn't even provable Scripturally.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What bible you reading, predestination occurs before the world began..

Mikie, some of us believe what the Bible clearly states. When people like Beloved57 distort a few verses, completely disregard others to the point of outright denying what the Bible teaches, it's a dangerous thing and needs to be refuted.

Beloved57 has shown arrogance and contempt for people here who believe the Bible. He is attempting to teach false doctrine. We showed where he is wrong, he ignores the scriptures, and now I believe he is not worth dealing with.

What's your point in this? That as someone who believes in insecurity you never question anyone else no matter how far off base they are? What does this have to do with eternal security at all? Tell me, how could I have addressed Beloved57's false teaching and arrogance without appearing contentious to you? Or should we just let him believe and spread whatever he wants without saying a word? What really is your point here, surely you're not making some kind of accusation?

Jeff, your 2nd paragraph is good advice. Predestination is next to impossible to prove Biblically (I say next to impossible because some verses can be taken out of context). So, I will take your advice and not deal with it.

I have merely delivered the truth and you despise it, because you have not been born of God. He that hath been born of God heareth Gods words..

predestination is taugt in the holy scriptures, but onnly those who have Gods spirit submitt to its teaching..

rom 8

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

eph 1:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,[ not mans freewill]


11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Predestination is according the Eternal Mind of God, not subject to time..


You call yourself a believer in God and despise and reject this gospel truth ?

Answers to your questions;

Q) How can some of you say you believe in eternal security......

A) Easy....I believe in eternal security because that is what the Bible teaches.

Q)...when if someone disagrees with you, you question their salvation...

A) The Bible is a book of absolutes, there is no scope for more than one doctrine being correct. These people are not disageeing with me or another man, but the author of the Book.

Q) you question their salvation...

A) As stated, I believe that salvation is an eternal position, if you have it in the first place. The only ones questioning anyones salvation are the proponents of the loss of salvation doctrine, which by default would be them questioning their own secure position. ( Or at least being in fear of losing it)

Q) whether they are submitting to God...

A) How else would you describe a person who thinks that being "stuck" with salvation is an infringement on his own fee will?

Q) they don't know the Bible?....

A) Because they dont. Knowing your Bible is more than being able to take a few verses and make them fit to a preconcieved doctrinal position.

Q) The accusations are flying "off the handle

A) Oh please.!.. as soon as people react to your/ their doctrinal flag waving in what you see to be a negative light, its straight into "victim" mode and everyone is a nasty bully.

fundy

You say it's a Biblical Doctrine. So far the proof offered isn't very convincing. You can say that about what I say as well. You say, "...that's what the Bible teaches". I say what I believe what the Bible teaches. So, again, my complaint is, anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is somehow a heretic. That makes it hard for a civil discussion. Oh well.

I don't believe the doctrine of eternal security. I also don't believe your take on my position. So far nothing has been said to change my mind. You are certainly welcome to keep trying. Be assured I study the same Bible you do. I believe the same Holy Ghost guides me. But neither one of us "knows it all".

Thats because you dont believe in Jesus..

jn 14:

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Jesus should have said you might be where I am..

according to your philosophy [ thats all it is] Jesus may prepare to many ot to less houses...


Jn 10:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Oh sweet words never perish never perish, how secure how secure, never perish..

Ro 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Beloved 57, I've read several of your posts [you have been busy], and I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what your real purpose is. How do we as Christians apply what you [and some others] believe?? What are your responsibilities as a believer??
According to your "doctrine", what is the meaning of these Scriptures given above?? What is the purpose of the preacher if they can't make a decision on their own??

When Jesus told us to go forth and preach the Gospel, what would be the use if a person can't make a decision??

Pr 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

I know Christ does the winning of souls, but what is the meaning of all the Scriptures which describe our responsibilities as believers?? Someone who believes what you do could feel no obligations to the lost, and could feel happy about doing nothing....I am not being bitter, I'm just puzzled....God bless

The gospel reveals to the elect their salvation..

Ephesians 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

I believe in Jesus, beloved57. But I don't believe your interpretation of how a person is saved. It is pretty obnoxious of you to say a person doesn't believe in Jesus if they don't agree with you.

And what is your point ? Obviously you dont understand this what you just posted..lol

All you have done here is group a bunch of scriptures together, but have not given the sense of none of them, for they all teach various truthes..you are presenting them incoherently..

You need it if you don't see the point.

Oh, so all the "elect" have to do is hear the gospel, and then their predestinated salvation is "revealed" unto them.
Is that how you were saved?
What happened to them believing and calling?

Yes yes and yes..

Jesus came to reveal salvation to his sheep, his elect..

lk 1:

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

acts 13:

26Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent


acts 10:

36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

God sends the message of the gospel to his elect to hear..

hear paul 2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Nothing happened to them..

God sends the Gospel to all. And we don't have to just hear the Gospel, we need to receive it and believe it - receive the Saviour and His gift of salvation. He calls us through the Gospel:

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We need the preparatory work of the Holy Spirit (convicting, enlightening) and the preaching (or reading) of the Gospel to be saved.

mixing all "elects" and mixing all "gospels"

only all the elect have been saved, and God sends them the good news and they believe..

There is no gospel at all for the non elect, for their portion is the lake of fire for their sins..

The passage you posted here is actually agreeing with me, lol only the chosen ones are sent the gospel..

The sanctification of the Holy spirit is giving them their newbirth and faith to believe that they are saved..

Only the chosen are called to obtain [come into the knowledge of] their salvation..

So you continue to show your lack of understanding lol..